Conceived in Rape: An Educator's Inspiring Story of Adoption and Resilience - Pro-Dignity, No Doubt, Episode 2

Welcome to Episode 2 of 'Pro Dignity, No Doubt,' a podcast dedicated to exploring the inherent value of all human life. In this episode, host Nicole Smith is joined by Sherri Clark, an educator, advocate, and individual conceived in rape. Sherri shares her powerful and inspiring journey, from learning about her birth mother's trauma to navigating life-altering events that left her brother wheelchair-bound.

This episode delves deep into the unique challenges faced by adoptees, particularly those conceived in traumatic circumstances. We explore the impact of such a beginning on a person's self-worth and identity, and how Sherri has navigated these challenges with resilience and hope.

Join us as we discuss key topics including adoption, trauma, disability, self-worth, and resilience. Tune in to 'Pro Dignity, No Doubt' for compelling conversations on dignity, life, and resilience, and be inspired by Sherri's journey of hope and purpose.

Keywords: Adoption, conceived in rape, trauma, disability, self-worth, resilience, Pro Dignity, No Doubt, podcast, Nicole Smith, Sherri Clark.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:22

Hello, this is Nicole Smith with another episode of pro dignity. No doubt. This is a Podcast where we explore questions of what human value, what is the human value of life. So with me today we have Cherie Clark. She is a retired civics teacher, an adoptee and also an individual who happened to be conceived unripe. This is a hard beginning with much impact all the way through life, including myself. So hello, Sherry. Hello. So, fun story. Sherry, actually is my civics teacher, in my sophomore year in high school, at a at a year, we probably don't really want to admit to ourselves, but it was a while ago. And, you know, it was just the one year and then she went off to another job. And we really didn't see each other until just randomly came across each other, in in civics during a campaign. And we were sitting there and we're like, we feel like we know each other. And then I go to the bathroom, come back. You're like, you're my teacher. I guess I was. So fun, fun. And then we've been friends ever since. Right? It's funny how things come square back around. Right? So I was very proud that some of your teachings rubbed off on me. And me too. Yeah, so you were a civics teacher in classical school. So tell us a bit about your career. And well, I taught for years at Franklin classical school civics and political economy. And then another one of my students, once he graduated, went through college, and He currently works for Congressman Mark Green. He is has taken my class and is teaching civics and political economy. And I'm still at Franklin, classical, just at a lesser degree. As far as classes. I'm only teaching anatomy and physiology. But I am doing some administrative work as their dean of students. Yeah. And your grandma, your grandma. The proudest? Yes, all jobs. I have two grandsons. One will be seven tomorrow. And wow. Yeah. And his little brother is too. Oh, wow. Hey, so that's the same spread that I have on my lunch, right? I forgot about that. That's right. But we know how it's going. But how did it start your life? As you said, My biological mother did have a very traumatic experience in conceiving me. It was in 1966. And I was born in November of 1966. But as you might imagine, in Nashville, Tennessee, in the 60s, having a child and unwed was a very scary thing. And she was how old? She was 19. Yeah. And so it was a very brave thing that she did. And I understand from my brother, who I've come to know, over the last few years that abortion was not ever a consideration, as traumatic as the conception was as traumatic as her maternity was that she, you know, hunkered down and honored life. And I understand that she wants she gave birth, that she had four days to decide if she was going to keep me. And the fourth day, she decided it would be best to give me over to a mom and a dad. Because she would not be marrying the man who air quotes fathered me. Yeah. And, in fact, she was in a relationship at the time. And it was with my brother's father. Yeah. So so it's the best gift I've ever received. Absolutely, yeah. being allowed to live in the middle of all of her trauma. I think for her, though I've not spoken with her, I think for her. After speaking with my brother, the number of times that we've talked about it an abortion would have caused more trauma to her. She had already been through several traumas before conceiving me. And that would have been, you know, one added trauma. Yeah, absolutely. And how did you connected with your brother? Well, one of my students, and yeah, one of my students in civics, she and her siblings received a genetic testing the ancestry.com. And all the all the siblings received one and there was one leftover, and she knew that I was adopted and did not know anything about my biological history. And my parents had the lat the My father died last. And it wasn't until they passed away that I would have even been interested in finding out anything about my biological history, I had a really wonderful childhood loving parents, and there wasn't a great deal of interest. And then also, I didn't want to hurt them with searching. But they were already home with the Lord when my student said, her name was Mary Holland, when she said, let's, let's find out where you're from. And I knew there was a good chance, because I knew I had been conceived and gone through maternity and born in Nashville. So I knew that it was a possibility. My records would show up against someone else who might be looking for me. And that's is what happened. But my first interest was to find out what my genetic history was, I was hoping for something really exotic and fun and cool. Aren't we all. But I'm half Scotch Irish and half English. Well, there you go. Very straightforward. Right down the middle, right down the middle. And but when my data was posted on ancestry.com, my paternal aunt was on there searching for me. Oh, wow. And when she saw and I, you know, you check a box if you're willing to connect with someone who is seeking for you? Yeah. So I didn't know that. Yeah. And so I agreed. And just a bout a month later, I checked, just out of curiosity. And she had posted on there that she knew who I was, and would I be interested in meeting with her? And I said, Yes. And we had a fun phone conversation. And she said that I had a brother. And he's my half brother, he's, you know, we don't share the same maternal right? genetic history. And I said, Yes. So she called my brother's wife and let her know, that I had that she had found me. And he was at a he was out of town working and was kind of busy when she called. And he said that, you know, just that I'm busy. And she said, No, you really need to take this call. Because by this time, other people in the community knew and she didn't want him to hear from someone besides her. So he took the call, and she said, you know, that my paternal aunt had found it found me. And he was, of course, very excited. And my husband and I were on our way to the beach, for the first time ever without kids. Our youngest was a junior in college and our oldest has two children, two sons, and we were on our way to a nice, long romantic beach vacation and my brother whose name is Mark, texted and said, who he was and that they were excited on their end to know, you know, where I was and who I was. Would I be interested in meeting him? And I texted back I can sit Yes, of course, yeah, qualified it and said, just, you know, heads up. I've had a wonderful life. My parents are both home with the Lord and my brother that I was raised with. He was also adopted from, you know, nother two sets of parents were not we weren't biologically related. And so I told him that I am interested in any step, as long as it's positive, yeah, that I have a very fond memories of my childhood, it was not without hardship, and trauma, but it was definitely steeped in love. And he said, same here, you know, and my aunt had already told me that he was, you know, just to find Falah with five children and, you know, living in the same city and doing very well. And he was very specific, and his texts to make sure that I could tell he was legit, and was honoring me and my wishes and my privacy and all and suggested that we meet any said with our spouses, of course. And so I told them, we are on the at the beach, and are on our way to the beach, and that I'd love to meet him when we got back. And we texted and had phone conversations a little bit that week, and discovered that we had a lot in common with what we like and do and think. And so that was a lot of fun. Oh, good. Yeah. And so, overall, you know, obviously had a happy childhood, expressed and what was it like going through this process of being reconnected emotionally, mentally, spiritually? What did that look like for you? Yeah. I guess you mean, reconnected with my biological, biological, you know, your brother? And yeah, maybe getting to know a bit more about your mother's story and stuff. Yeah. Well, it was really, really sweet. I didn't know much about my mom's story until the then evening that we met in person. He stated, to his family that, you know, that I existed, and that we were going to wait until after Memorial Day to get together. And just the four of us, Mark and his wife, Margaret, and my husband, Andy and I. And so I was nervous. Yeah, I was really nervous. You know, me, I'm not very flashy or posh at all. But I mean, even at my wedding, I didn't. I have a hard time dressing up and getting ready for things. And the night before I was going to meet my brother, I laid out two outfits on my bed and with shoes and trying to it took me 12 hours to decide what I was going to wear. To meet him in my own wedding. I didn't do that. So I was very nervous. And he we met at dinner and in Nashville. And he asked where we wanted to meet. And I was talking to Andy, where should we go? And Andy said, Well, it's we're not going in Franklin. Because if this goes south, you're never gonna want to darken the door again. escape route bliss, some distance. Exactly. Because we're not we're south of Nashville. Now, we're not there very often. And so if it went badly, it was not going to be a big deal to never ever go to that restaurant again. Yeah, yeah. And he knows me. Well, yeah. But we met there. And it was it. We were gonna meet at six o'clock on the dot. I was really nervous. And remember the time Yes, yeah. Sounds on Thursday evening, on the seventh of June. And we have an anniversary get together every every year on on June 7, because that's the day that we met each other. So we get there at six o'clock. And he I asked Andy to get me there, right at six o'clock, because I don't want to wait for him. And he was already there. He gotten a table and it was really fun because evidently he had told the hostess that he was meeting me and wouldn't know me. And so we walked up to the hostess stand and said, I'm meeting someone here that I don't know. And he, she looked around like Oh, okay and looked around. And that was his cue that I was there. And so he walks up. He clearly was as nervous as you were, yeah. walks up and he holds his hand out and says Sherry, and I said yes. And he puts his hand out and I put my hand in his to shake. And he says, Mark pi burn, I'm so happy to meet you. And he kind of can't help himself kind of pulls me in and starts to hug. And I said, Ah, I'm so glad to meet you. And he found out about me when he was 18. didn't always know about me. And when we were hugging, I could feel you know, he was nervous and shaking. And he said, I've been looking for you for 30 years. And I was a bit nervous, and he was standing behind him, and he had his arms around my arms. And so Andy was in the back. Kind of showing me to put my arms around it. I can move. Yeah, I can back. And so I was so nervous. I didn't do that until Andy told me to hug him back. And, and I hugged him, and I felt his back. And he's really strong. You know, that kind of got me. Oh, man. He's jacked. He's awesome. Brothers. Spirit. Yeah. And so I was, so that just kind of made it a little more light, and calming. And so he just showed us to our table, and we sat down and he was said, I am so nervous, and he was crying. And Andy said, Well, do you guys pray? And they said, Yeah, we're Catholic. Of course, we pray. I was like, yes. And so Andy said, well, let's just pray. And so Andy prayed over us, and just thanking God for that moment, and for life, for sibling love, and asking him to go before us as we get to know each other. And it was wonderful. And right, as soon as we raised our heads, Mark said, you know, I'm just an ugly crier, don't look, let me finish and what's so fun. And we ordered and ate. Big meals. Only Mark and I couldn't eat. We're talking and nervous. And Andy and Margaret, were eating their food and hours, listening to everything. It was really an every word. Yeah, it was really cute. But it was at that meal that he told me the circumstances under which I was conceived. And in that moment, I was just looking at him. And he had shared with me some other traumas that she had been through that has really left her, you know, a very traumatized woman who has been through so very much, and I haven't met her yet. Because she knows that we are connected, and she's very happy about that. But because I know how difficult life is for her, I don't push it on her at all. I have sent her a couple of Thanksgiving cards, just thanking her for my life and letting her know that all I feel for her is gratitude. And that suffices, you know, when you know that you live in eternity, and you know that not all things are reconciled. This side of heaven. You have that hope and ability to be patient for those reconciliations. Yeah. So he told me about that, and about her trauma and conceiving me, and in that moment, I was just so sad for him having to tell me Yeah, because it was very difficult for him to tell me and I really didn't even think of it the rest of the night because it really just kind of washed over me and because we were just so into each other. Yeah. I wanted to know about all his kids, he has five and he wanted to know about ours and our grandkids none of his children are married yet. And he wanted to know all about our grants and so it really took the whole time and we shut down the the restaurant restaurant Yeah. So much to talk about. But the next morning I woke up just lying next to Andy, and just woke up thinking about that, the way that I was conceived. And it was, that was traumatic. Yeah. You know, your feelings can take over what you know to be true, especially when you're weak and tired and, and all and we I had been up most of the night, but I woke up thinking about that, and you know, not gonna lie, the overwhelming feeling was just feeling dirty. And it pains me to even say that now, because I know that's not true. Yeah. Women who experienced that feel that way dirty. Yeah. And I experienced that just that morning when I woke up, never thought about it the evening of learning about it or thinking about it afterwards. Cry cried for a few hours, actually. And not much of a crier. But that was just a. And that's the tie to a paternal. Yeah, right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I get that. But of course, Andy, being rooted in Scripture, knew exactly how to draw me back to what is beautiful, good and true. And that is that everyone is made in the image of God for his particular purpose is even in Yeah, and evil and evil. Absolutely. And the devastation that causes on obviously the woman that sustaining that that trauma in the moment, but that that carries on right, beyond that moment. But since then, have you had any additional like, struggles with like, processing this, like, what does it look since that day that you discovered? Yeah, I'm not much. I haven't experienced trauma related to the way that I was conceived. much after that, really returning to Scripture, knowing what God says about life and being made in His image Imago Dei, that that is a good thing we learn about that. In Genesis we Somis talks about as being fearfully and wonderfully made, and it must be wonderful, or else, Christ wouldn't come to suffer and die for that. Right. But he redeems even the most evil of Acts. Absolutely. Yeah. Which makes it even more beautiful. Right. Amen. Yeah. To know that, I've been able to live until motherhood myself. Why my goodness, far in here? To know that I've been able to live to, to motherhood myself. That, to me, there's not much more redeeming, absolutely, to know that life was created. And in a way that's not by God's design. Yet he has turned it to us and beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. And it's what's more beautiful than light in total darkness. And I, I do appreciate the you had such a strong husband to draw you back into that, that we didn't he didn't have to go down that road, knowing that your your dignity is tied to being an image bearer of our Heavenly Father. As a Christian, we we should know that and understand that. And that not everyone feels that way. They don't they don't have that the honor of of really understanding that at its foundation. And so that kind of brings us to the discussion of what society says about dignity and specifically, you know, you're an adoptee we can't speak to your mother's experiences, but we speak to yours. And yeah, so like you poke around the internet a little bit. You're gonna find lots of articles from adoptees, but also the medical profession that say the good things and the bad things about being adopted. And a lot of the stats that you'll find as about adoption being a form of trauma itself. That sense of separation from your actual maternal Like the, the your actual mother that that smell that connection that you have. There's a lots of studies that are done. So a few of those adoptees are four, four times more likely to attempt suicide. The chances of an adoptee coming in contact with the mental health world doubles if a person is adopted in infancy there's a higher risk for substance abuse. And, you know, especially with with you, there's another one that even stats about adoptees who seek out their birth parents and adulthood being in a greater risk of mental distress. Of course, you being a Christian, and understanding, you know, where your dignity lies. It gives a certain level of understanding that in a removal from that, that sense of trauma that a lot of people, obviously are hurting, right. And I think that's the point, we need to understand what our worth is, as a human person is beyond our experiences, right? And so for you, obviously, there's some aspects of it's traumatic, but you being grounded in that understanding, right, your value just made an immense impact in how you handle that. But the question is, especially within society, what people are experiencing, does potential suffering, alter a person's intrinsic value, because you hear a lot of discussions going on today that, you know, you're at a greater risk of trauma, because you're an adoptee. Right? And therefore, it's probably just best if you don't live at all. And of course, this we're talking about adoption, but abortion, obviously, is a deeply adjacent issue. And so that's really what we want to do is just connect to the idea of like human person. Because the issue I have is that, essentially, you're saying because they have a greater risk of suffering, then it's not worth trying to find viable solutions. Right. So what are your thoughts isn't right? Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. When you think about society's take, specially when society's viewing it. Not from a biblical perspective, or from a Christian worldview. It's the same whether you're talking about overpopulation and the problem of feeding. Yeah, that, you know, so many people? Well, the answer is not kill them all. And not have children. Yeah, it is figuring out how to feed them. Yeah. And when a society loses track of who they are, and whose image they've been made, they begin to think about everything differently. In fact, they think of themselves as God. Yeah. And when we consider our lives as his, not even our own, then we actually ended up emulating Christ in our sufferings. Yeah. And while that is not something that we abs, you know, actually covet, it is something that we know that we are going to do this side of heaven, that we are going to experience trauma, would you think it from society trying to sort of escape suffering and trauma as a sort of perversion? Yeah, the the, especially in the Western world, I think, sense of like purpose in life is to be free of a struggle. And then you look around the world. And we have such a mental health crisis that exists in our society that we're trying to escape suffering, so much so that we create that suffering within ourselves where you look overseas and people that are being, you know, routinely raped and routinely enslaved and experiencing such a greater level of trauma than we do in the United States, and they feel such joy for life. It is always such an interesting, like perspective. I think. So, yeah, it's all according to do you see life as precious in and of itself, whether it's yours or someone else's? Whether it's sales for forming in the womb, or a whole group of millions of cells at the end of life, that those those lives are as precious as one who is thriving and participating and contributing to society that is just life itself is precious, because it is God's image. Yeah, that you see there? Yeah. Um, we're looking at a society that essentially defines moral worth, within the womb, a state of dependence, like that's where they gain or lose their moral value. And, you know, even more so as an adoptee like that potential suffering is where beyond the womb is what we're trying to prevent. These are forms of dignity measurement within society. So do you think that there's a vested interest in society, doing things along these lines, that would help prevent further suffering? You know, obviously, as a Christian, you know, you have a very defined view of what value is but, you know, what are the dangers? What do you think, you know, as a perspective of an adoptee, for other people on the adoption that have been adopted? Could we not help this, like this mental health issue? community, you know, you know, the, especially in this post ROH World, that we're all of a sudden, and, you know, we are seeing ourselves, not at the end, but at the beginning of the end of trying to remedy the worst human rights experience the world has ever had ever seen. Yeah. And the church has to stand up and communicate these things better and more often, from the pulpit, to a society that is listening to people like Planned Parenthood who make statements like that abortion saves lives. Well, whose lives do they say? And whose lives are they really protecting? And we are remissed and getting out the information, the counter information that? No, it's not just about stopping abortion, and it and yes, we really do care about the baby who will be looking needing a mother and a father afterwards, because there are over 3000 adoption agencies across the nation, and 400 maternity homes across the nation. We do have programs that you can Google really quick and find programs that will help unwed mothers or women who are in the middle of an unwanted pregnancy and not knowing what to do. We've done a poor job of getting that information out and have allowed the opposition, like Planned Parenthood, to get a whole other narrative out there that people believe and that it's not worth the suffering, right. The your life's not worth that suffering. Yeah, I think you're right. Communication is the biggest part of it. That a lot about what we're trying to do is explore that question of human value, because at its foundation, that if you, you can refute a lot of these ideas, when you just put into question, really, what are you trying to do, like with this? You're, there's a money line that's attached to it. There's there's a an ulterior motive at play, that when someone like you that has had a beautiful life that they're your mother chose, right, and allowed you to have life and you have purpose, and you've been a wonderful teacher and influence for all all the people that you've been touched throughout your life, that that that suffering wasn't worth the outcome. Right, right. And I think that looking past with that, that that those words are is really, really important to really see what that the actual motive is at play here is that they don't really care about women. They don't care about your mother that went through such a terrible thing. She has$1 sign attached to her. And because you are a part of her and we're inside of her, there's$1 sign attached to the ending of your life. It had nothing to do about Empower empowerment. Because right, yeah, because at the end of the day, too, I I firmly believe that it didn't matter if we have abortion, we still have unwanted pregnancies, we still have unwanted outcomes, and it doesn't fix it. It just lessons it lessens the impact and then you just get the benefit of not caring about the ones that are suffering here because it removes it from the collective conscience, like, look, you know, we don't have hunger anymore. We our schools aren't crowded or welfare systems not overburdened, that kind of stuff. Right. So yeah, I don't think that human life is as great or worse than and is trying to find solutions, viable solutions, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Just a follow up on the idea of living through trauma and having hardships and that being worth it. Yeah. Yes, I did have a wonderful childhood. It wasn't without trauma. And my brother who's adopted, even experienced more trauma than I did when we, our family had a car accident in 1978. I was 11. And he was 15. And he had a C two c three injury. And then my mother had multiple injuries, but cerebral hindered injuries. And that car accident, left both my brother and my mother handicap. And my dad and I were taking care of them. And it was, you know, our world was very small from 1978, until actually, just five years ago. And as hard as all of that was, I never would look back and say, If my mom had just aborted me, I wouldn't have to be doing all this. It was still nothing but gratitude that we got to live as closely as we did. You know, my brother who suffered physically so very much would never say he never He wished he'd never been born. And you know, he was paralyzed from the neck down. And he would never say that. We went to school together we at MTSU. And he developed his mind, he was never going to work, never going to earn money, but developed his mind and had a semi college experience. We had it together and enjoyed that it was a really hard time to go to school and have all of that all of the physical things to do to be able to go to school, and never want, even when he was very sick several times, you know, got very close to death, he fought and hung on to life. And even if his mother had known what his future was, it still was worth living, the number of people he impacted by showing how much value he put to live, just to breathe every day. Yeah. was worth it, transcends it transcends. Yeah. And I think that's a big communication point that we need to drive through society, in our culture today is that purpose it does not, is not derived from devoid of suffering. And when it doesn't look exactly like they want it to. You know, there's movies that have come out in the past about that, that were just so deeply hurtful, this idea that you might as well just enjoy your life, because now things look different. You can't walk or your purpose changes the way you you react and act and within society is different. Yeah. Movies like that, in all sorts of entertainment, and our addiction to the digital world, has really left another pandemic that we are experiencing, and that's the pandemic of despair. Absolutely. People are full of despair. And it's because we've lost touch with the reality of who we are, as image bearers who we are in Christ, that our value is endowed by our Creator. Our founding fathers knew that, yeah. That so much so that his son would come and die for us. That's how valuable valuable that we are. Yeah. I, most Christians, non Christians don't understand that the depth of the importance of that, but I feel like Christians undersell the importance of that, too. Even Christians are suffering in the same way. Because we've, we've allowed so many other narratives, to seep into our psyche and our heart. And when we don't rely on what we know, and began to rely on our feelings, it can take over Yeah, and especially when you are inundated with an idea that that your purpose, the purpose of living is to be beyond suffering and trauma and all of this, you know, communication, this idea, this idea of being beautiful and wealthy and that that's what you seek out. And you have people like Anthony Bourdain that have one of the most desirable lives that you could ever, you get to go around the world and eat food with all the best, you know, and then you enjoy your life, like just these things don't compute in a world that says that, that ease is where you gain your purpose, right. And so being a mother of a child that has cerebral palsy, you know, I'm newly fairly newly induced, my, my dad's older sister actually has a mental impairment and she was born normal, then, when she was 13, she essentially ended up with schizophrenia, I say that really loosely, because I don't really know what it is, but ended up reducing it or to a cognitive capability of a four year old for the rest of her life. And she is such a precious and beautiful person. But I grew up with her. And then, you know, I experienced this with my own blood, my own child. And, you know, in those moments of going through this through COVID, especially where you're just so deeply isolated from the world, at a level that it was just so hard to handle, at some times that she stopped breathing a lot that her her muscle tone issue is just affected that midline strength. So I mean, just on a daily basis, like three or four times, she just stopped breathing during football, you know, things like that, where I can genuinely say and look back on the last two years and going I would never change an absolute second. to have her here. Even though like in those moments is such extreme shifts of just joy despair, you know, struggle she gave me just like every child does honestly doesn't doesn't matter. The Disability wasn't the thing that gave me a sense of purpose. It's motherhood, right for, right? Because I can grow people and I can birth people, and I'm not a burden person. I'm a woman. I'm strong. And so my oldest gave me a very strong sense of purpose. So I love that you made mention to that, that your maternity leave is just such a grounding force of purpose and your life to even as you're walking out these really hard times. Yeah, if we're made to be, we're made for motherhood. Yeah. And society wants to impose the narrative onto us that we're to think of our bodies and our purpose, like men do. Yeah. It doesn't mean that we can't have careers. We've both you and I both have had careers. Being able to embrace both is, is a wonderful thing. Yeah. You know, I'm 55 now, and I can honestly say the number of women I've come across that are utterly bitter, in the world have not experienced some kind of motherhood. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz motherhood doesn't always have to be logical. Yes. Yeah. spiritual motherhood. mentorships. Yeah. At, I have a very close friend who is a teacher and a single woman and has never had children. Who is the mother of so many? Yeah. And she's a delightful woman. And it's because we're made for them. Yes, absolutely. And we've been, we've been sold a lot. duped? Yes. I think I was almost 30 years old when I gave birth to my first child. So it's like, I was deeply in career and I really, it was only I was 28 years old. And I decided I wanted to kids. My, my husband really wasn't on board quite then. And then we got we got together, right. Okay. But, you know, you're, you're told what strength is right. And so it's very bombastic. It's male oriented, strength, which is beautiful. Like, don't don't like Wow, just blows my mind. But I labored for 29 hours with my daughter without any epidural. And let me tell you, when you push, after 29 hours of very hard labor, for 15 minutes burst almost every blood vessel on your face, and you come out walking an hour later. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, like, that is amazing. And my husband would just like stop for months afterwards. And I called it the birth Hi be like, Oh, my gosh, I can't believe you did that. I know. I can't believe I did. But it took me 30 years to discover that I was deeply lied to them that I'm really really, really strong. And I don't have to to exemplify that sense of strength that men have to in order to be powerful and strong and purposeful. And yeah, there's a strength in motherhood that exists in nowhere else in the world and Nate Sure, yeah. And we are the weaker vessel scripture says that we are weaker. But in more in terms of brute strength, yeah, like, you can't lift as much, right? But I can sustain a cold and still get up and take care of all our husbands in bed, like, Oh, I've never been this sick in the world, and I'm like, I'm sick with the same thing. And now everybody's being fed, the house is clean, like, I do my job, I'm taking care of the kid. Yeah, it's just like, that's the difference, you know, that strength, then. Just, I feel like, it's really important that we have those discussions as women too, and even tied to that discussion of dignity, that, that just because we're different, and we display strength differently, it doesn't actually change our inherent value. So as a Christian, I always like to point out that, you know, our inheritance in Christ is the same, you know, we're going to heaven, we inherit the exact same thing that a man does, we're, uh, we're displayed as being the image bearer of our heavenly Father, male or female that we exemplifies various different things of like, of God and the beauty in that and understanding that as a Christian is nothing undersold to. And I know denominations have different positions on that. But yeah, I'm going to heaven. I stand before my Heavenly Father in the same posture as the man that's, you know, a koala me Yeah, cool. Air. Oh, air is with our brother. Yes, you are inheriting exactly what Christ has inherited. Yeah, I know. So powerful. How can one have more value than that. And so while we're here on Earth, it's so interesting to me, when you talk about people that have gone through this really deep, have a deep understanding of what suffering is, you know, I know you've gone through your own story, and you haven't really had someone else's story. So but you know, people that have like, deep, deep drug addictions that are in Skid Row, that there's more likelihood that they believe in God, because they they understand and see his that his existence more than someone that lives in comfort, that somebody that has that cushy job in corporate world that doesn't need him doesn't need God, and that you can get through such deep suffering moments in life because you have that hope, like, an understanding of where your value is derived from is being that image bearer so, but I really appreciate you coming on. I mean, we've been like, connected over the years, and I've heard your story, obviously before, this is why I asked you to get like such an impactful story. Where I just am incredibly grateful to your mother to Yeah, you've been a blessing to know so. But um, yeah, so we're gonna get off today, but we're gonna have more stories like Sherry's where we continue to talk about hope and cries but also where our purpose is derived from as being image bearers. Yeah. So thanks. Thank you so much, Nicole.