Overcoming Exploitation: A Journey from Childhood in the Sex Industry to Helping Trafficking Victims - Pro-Dignity, No Doubt, Episode 4

Episode Description:
In Episode 4 of 'Pro-Dignity, No Doubt,' host Nicole Smith sits down with Amy Pfeffer, a certified mental health counselor with a unique and powerful story. Amy, who grew up in the sex industry, shares her journey from a tumultuous childhood to finding her purpose in helping sex trafficking survivors. This episode delves into the complexities of the sex industry, the challenges faced by individuals recovering from trafficking, and practical steps society can take to combat an industry that exploits people for profit.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 - Introduction
• 02:30 - Amy Pfeffer's personal journey
• 10:45 - Understanding the complexities of the sex industry
• 20:00 - Challenges faced by sex trafficking survivors
• 30:00 - Practical steps to combat exploitation
• 45:00 - Conclusion

Guest Bio:
Amy Pfeffer is a certified mental health counselor who grew up in the sex industry. She has dedicated her life to helping survivors of sex trafficking, using her personal experiences to inform her compassionate approach.

Links to Additional Resources:

• National Human Trafficking Hotline
• Mental Health Resources

Call to Action:
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Episode Transcription:
We provide a full transcription of each episode for those who prefer reading or are hard of hearing. You can find the transcription for this episode is in the tab above entitled "Transcript."

Transcript

Unknown: 0:24

Hello, this is Nicole Smith with another episode of pro dignity, no doubt, the podcast where we discuss the question of what is the value of human life where we tell stories we ask questions in order to spark discussions. Today we have Amy Pfeffer with us today. And we're just gonna dive right in. She has a very particular expertise that we'll get into here in a minute. But I usually just like to kind of tell them like how we met, and you know, how we got connected. I believe that nothing is really by accident. So we're just our kids go to school in the same building, not the same school, though, oddly enough to small private schools. And we're just girls are in dance class, and we're just doing the mom chatting. And that's how we got connected. It was kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah. We never been like, pre. Like, nobody introduced us to ourselves. And then we ended up getting in another like Kid event and realizing how much we had in common. Yeah. So it's hard to find people that care deeply about things that don't make you smile all the time. Like, you're so serious. Yes, because people are dying around the world. And it matters whether you show up and but yeah, just like, tell us a bit about your background as far as like, you know, where you were raised, but and then a bit about your work. And then we can dive a little deeper to your story because there's a lot to it. Yeah. Well, hi, everyone. My name is Amy Pfeffer. I am currently a professional life coach and counselor. I have degrees in master's in clinical mental health counseling, business administration, technology and theology. I'm also a certified project manager and have varying degrees and certifications in agile project management and things like that. But I am originally from Northern California. That's where I was born. We won't fault you for that. Yeah. My father was born and raised in Petaluma, California, sir Sonoma County, Northern California, very beautiful. But I know him very well. I didn't know him very well. I saw him obviously the very first part of my life. But after we moved away from California, I went back a couple summers, you know, and we spent some time at horse camp, but he was always working in a he was a raging alcoholic. So from what I understand, he was at a very staggering young age. An alcoholic? Yeah, before the age of 10, from my understanding, from what I've heard, so and then my biological mother, of course, had a very abusive history. And so I was born into kind of in, you know, incest based, sex industry, affiliated family. Yeah, with a lot of abuse, and just horrific, you know, upbringing. So knowing that there was familial distress, there was trauma D DCS was involved, law enforcement was often a lot of interaction there. Get getting now into the clinic, Clinical Mental Health, Counseling space and understanding when you're telling your story. It's very much from your professional. Yeah, I mean, because I, it was a part of my healing to assess. Yeah. And so now that I understand, Okay, here's what happened to me. I now work with sex traffic survivors. And that's kind of what I love. Yeah, Beauty from Ashes. Yeah, you know, the struggles we have in life. Even at the earliest, you really can turn into something that is driven and purpose that, you know, now you're married to a beautiful man, and with two beautiful little girls. And you know, you get to live out your life every day. With that knowledge do ya like it's amazing? Yeah, and really be emotionally attuned to them. So it's like, I can put terminology now to the things that I wasn't able to have growing up. And then just see how my intelligent designer was able to weave that history into something beautiful instead of just something, you know, forever tormenting. So there is joy in it. And I think that's what you and I experienced when we first met each other that in spite of the difficult topics that we run towards, and try to show the love of our intelligent designer to others, there is joy. You know, there was Jesus had more joy than any of his companions, and so we can have joy in helping others too. Um, that have come from horrific backgrounds. Yeah. And that's what we're supposed to be because life no matter what your background is, and what your struggles, everybody has struggles, you know? You have to make something of the of that. I feel. Yeah, my purpose otherwise you You're right, you're very much, you know, tormented. And you see that in your story, obviously, through, you know, your mother and your siblings and sort of how they've come through life a little bit differently than you. Yeah. So I mean, I don't know how much you're comfortable sharing about your background, but you know, yeah, so Well, I can kind of jump right in. I mean, my biological mother and her family was from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. And from what I understand, there were 10 of them. And there was a lot of trauma that occurred. Her father was in the military at one point, and there was a lot of alcoholism, a lot of abuse. From my understanding, my mother had been sexually assaulted by and physically assaulted, you know, my father and brothers, and she was one of the youngest girls. So, you know, I found that out later in life after I kind of became estranged from her, but it was not an exciting time, you know, for her. And so I can see that even in the brokenness in our family and the choices that she made for her children. And she had six of them, as we grew up together, there were six of us that had experienced being in you know, the sex industry in the strip clubs, and I actually lived with the strip club owner, from adolescence, you know, on and lived with multiple different families. So it was not secure attachment. There was not any predictability, monotonous kind of boring existence. It was every day what trauma is kind of coming my way do Yeah. So and then I was also sexually assaulted by my stepfather. And so in all of us girls, were from my understanding and talking with my sisters had been sexually abused before the age of five. So, you know, it's just the culture and what it is, and I kind of describe it as total depravity. Yeah. And grab perpetuating depravity. Right. Yeah. You know, from generation to generation. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, how animal poverty stricken as well. So it's like, you know, there are various degrees of, you know, the sex industry, and you know what that can bring, but for us, it was just depravity and poverty and instability. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, with my sisters, I will say there was one incident that my biological mother got us into, and I had a discussion with her. I was living with different families at the time. But she started to become romantic with a man that they nicknamed Satan at distributome. Yeah, but ma'am, yeah. And, you know, he went on to have over 40 counts of rape against my younger sister. Yeah. And, you know, she was, I can't quite remember probably between the ages of 11 and 13. Yeah. And you said that your mom sort of allowed this to happen, or at least Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we all she was having an affair with him. While she was married to my stepfather, and, you know, just understanding that they nicknamed him Satan was, you know, that was good guy you trust with your children? Like, just don't you know, and there was in a time where he wanted to take my younger sister across the country on a motorcycle to Sturgis, without my biological mother's presence. And from my understanding, there, obviously was trafficking situation that occurred with her. Yeah. So I don't know that she would ever, you know, define it as that. It's just total depravity is what we lived in. And I think dissociative identity disorder, borderline personality disorder, bipolar, like all the things we can say, from a mental health standpoint, like this is what happens when you don't have love, you have depravity, and you have abuse against humanity. So from the very basis and core of your experience your mother, definitely from the very beginning, you know, and that she perpetuates that too, and that cycle, and that's just so sad. Yeah. And she didn't see the value in her life. Yeah. Let alone recognize the value and dignity that our children would have. So in that strain, I think that's really the one of the most important things I think you probably recognize as a mental health specialist is under Standing your value as a person. So, you know, we've interviewed other people, you know, on this podcast, like one in particular was somebody that was conceived in violent rape that she was adopted out. And a lot of the statistics and suicidality surrounding adoption and the adoptees in particular in it. What struck me during her testimony was that this didn't even occur to her because she understood her value was was deeper than her circumstances. And so I'm sure that that's something we try to instill in the people that you work with every day, because you understand that too. Yeah. So part of your testimony, which I think is just wonderful is this point in which you're sort of transformed moving in a different trajectory than your family? So what How old were you? Like, how did you go down that path? Where you're just like, this is I'm done with this? Where are you like, 13? How are you? Yeah, so about the the age of 13 on is when I started living with different families. And I always knew that I was a bit different, you know, I think I was seeking man's empty praise, you know, the applause of man to fill the gap of not being accepted or loved having any positive regard towards my life at all of my family of origin. So for me, it was how can I play my saxophone? How can I sing? How can I be part of the dance team and I ended up becoming choreographer and like, there was a lot of different things that I was doing in the school. Anything that could keep me away from home. Yeah, so I filled my time with extracurricular activities. And one time, when I was about 16 years old, I, the pastor's daughter, in the school, there was I mean, I'm think there were several but one in particular, who had kind of been watching me, you know, and seeing like, Amy's doing a lot. And she could probably tell some other things about me just by observing, you know, me, I was pretty rebellious. There were a lot of you know, I was in the with the party crew and stuff. And it was like, well, that's, that was my background. So that's why it makes sense that I would be, but she saw, she told me this later that she kind of saw the influence that I had over the student body and how much I really cared. You know, I think I experienced being the underdog. And I think I was dissociated, dissociated enough away from it at the time, so I could just manage and handle wife. But, you know, she saw that I was very, I was fairly talented, you know, and that I that I could, you know, sing and play the saxophone. And so she asked me if I would contemplate singing a duet in a state solo and ensemble competition cool with her. So I was like, Oh, my goodness, this is the pastor's daughter. And she's showing interest in me. This isn't what yeah, this is amazing. So I accepted. And she said, we have a piano at the church. Why don't you come with me? And it was a Wednesday? Yeah, around 6pm. So she kind of set me up for church. And I didn't know that she was doing that, you know, we pull in and there's no, no, the church culture. You know, why did Wednesday? You know, I only thought Sunday, you know, that was it. But so we pull up and all these vehicles are in the parking lot. And I was like, Is the piano out in the open? Like, are we going to practice like, front of it? Is everyone going to hear us practice? I just didn't, you know, we were just practicing. And she's like, well, let's check it out. You know, I can't remember exactly what she said. But just like Let's go in. And so we were in a church. So this is the very first time that I felt the Holy Spirit, you know, for me, and I'm How old were you? 1617. Yes, 16 to 17. And I was very uncomfortable, highly uncomfortable. I was very emotionally avoidant at that time, and I didn't want to feel Yeah, so here I am with like, a lump in my throat and I can just feel, you know, I, I don't want to make this all about like spirituality. But for me, it's like, that's where my life changed. You know, it was just a direct operation opportunity to meet my living intelligent designer in your heart obviously wasn't fully cut off to that you can be in the presence of God and not feel it. If you're not receptive to that, you know, God, God came to you, you. You definitely were receptive, even though you weren't aware. I don't Yeah, I don't know how I was receptive. I was in that moment. I was like, I don't and I told her afterwards. I'm like, This is so uncomfortable for me. Like, I felt like your father was talking directly about me. And I asked her I was like, did you tell him in advance like about my life? And she's like, No, like, this is the living word of God. So it's piercing the heart of every listener? Yeah, it's not just you. Yeah. You know, and I'm like, so egocentric. Like, it's about oh, yeah, I think you fed him. He even know about your life. She's not fully Yeah, like if she knew that I came from some horrific things, but she didn't know like the extent of what it was. So I stayed away from the church environment for about six months after that. But on April 18 1999, she asked me to come back and visit again. There was a woman who was sharing her testimony and she was just as fireball woman, you And she could sing. So in the whole reason why I wanted to go because she's like, she's a soul singer. So I'm like, let me come and check her out, you know, and she shared her testimony. And then she, you know, it was kind of more charismatic or curious mania type church, but I was drawn into her story. And I ended up going up and giving my heart to the Lord that day. And so from that point on my life, the trajectory of my life, as you said, it was totally changed. And I was living with different families at the time. And one family was my aunt and uncle. No, my, my uncle was historically part of the military as well. And he had you know, is my biological mother's brother. And he had a lot of, you know, issues and hauntings and all of that, but she was very encouraging. She Italian as in her background and lineage. And she was just so encouraging. And she was like, Amy, you need to tell people about what God has done in your life. And you need to go share your giftings with the world in the Miss Eagle River pageant. Oh, and I was like, no, like, do look, look at me and look at my background, you know, but I did end up joining. And I just wanted to tell people about how God had changed my life from that type of platform. And I never expected to actually win. And when I did, and then I went on to the Miss Wisconsin magic. And that changed my life as well, because obviously, the Miss America pageants affiliated with scholarship, so that put my mind in a brand new mentality as college wasn't ever an option, or heads hadn't been spoken about before. So that's kind of like in an in a nutshell, what happened and what the big milestone things that kind of changed my data. Do you meet your husband though? Yes. So I met him singing in Nashville. Oh, so I was he was here actually, at the Belmont music business MBA program. And he was looking at a career change to get back into music to engineering, which is what he originally had wanted to do. And then he went into it because it was a safer, less risky option or is sensible? Yes. So he came to visit from Ohio, and he wanted to check out the local talent, and I happened to be the local talent. So we started talking, and we kept in touch for like, a year and a half as friends on a little thing called MySpace. Way back when Yeah, yeah. Was he your top? Top person? Your favorite member? I think I did make him one of my favorite. Yeah. Yeah, like way back when you're like, What changed your relationships? But yeah, no, I wasn't initially attracted to him because I thought he was too safe. Like, I thought I wanted to see him take risks. And, and he did, he ended up taking risks and gave up. You know, living in Ohio, he just purchased a home. And he knew that he wanted to marry me. And so six months after purchasing his home, he put it back on the market, sold it and moved down here I go next year. So we were, you know, very quickly, we knew that we were each other's person. And I would say after we started dating after about a year and a half that we were friends. It was like less than six months where we were engaged and then married. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. See, I had that issue with my husband too. I kept breaking up with them. Yeah, like these two sensible he's not you know, yeah. And I like the funny guy. He's he's an engineer like, engineer he's that's not him. But he's I kept breaking up with him and kept coming back so you know your termination. He said the key was to pursue you and the lease creepy way possible. That was like, he's creepy way like, you nailed it here. Did you ever feel creeped out by his pursue? Well, I mean, I guess with as a comparative analysis to other experiences. I had probably, least groupie experience, ya know, the most endearing thing when he when I knew he wanted to change to more than friends. He said the words. I am very fond of you. And I foresee you being a very significant part of my future. Oh, oh, my goodness, because he was very forthright with his intent. And I appreciated that. Yeah, yes. So now you have two adorable little girls. And I have two daughters, little girls that works out in the There you go. Yeah. So that's really that's cool. But I know that there's like a shift in your, your career path. You're talking about your certifications. You know, you're married now, right? You're in the corporate world and you're the project manager to these massive corporations. And when was it that you sort of transitioned into realizing that you were going to go into mental health and trying to help traffic survivors and that kind of stuff? Yeah. Where was that point? Well, I'll back up even a little bit. too, because when I first moved to Nashville, I wanted to be in a music industry that was doing you know, and I think with my background, I could just sense an unsafety. I think the closer that I got to my record deals that say the more unsafe, and the weirder it felt like people got Yeah. And so for me, coming from my background with trauma and kind of recognizing, when that radar goes up, I started to back out of that, then obviously met my husband. And when we got married in about a week before we got married, my biological father, father passed away. Oh, wow. So so we got married. And then we went on our honeymoon that my biological father had actually set set up for us. And then we went to his memorial service in San Francisco, like near San Francisco right after that. And then I started in the corporate world, and I was there for probably about 15 plus years. And I felt like God wanted me there to learn whatever I needed to learn and to become very familiar using the analytical part of my brain and be, you know, being over these multimillion dollar initiatives, which really helped me with responsibility and learning, you know, gave me just amazing experience. Yeah. My heart wasn't in it. Yeah, i My heart was with survivors. So I had started probably about eight years ago, working with different organizations, and some of the organizations that I've worked with, just as a volunteer, mentor, advocate for sex trafficked survivors, since that's where my heart was in building those relationships. And helping people understand that just because this is your background, doesn't mean that this is where you need to stay. Yeah. So I've worked with in slavery, Tennessee, Free for life, international hope for justice for 31 ministries and Scarlet hope. Yeah. And I've been doing that for probably eight or so years. And as I was working with them, I'm like, I told my husband, look, babe, I want to do this, like for my job? Yeah. So, you know, I'll continue to pursue music and just different ways while I'm raising a family and just having fun with it. But I think this is where I want my career to move. And so he and I started reading a book call and this I think it's a controversial book. But it was written by a man named David Goggins, and he's former military as well, it's called can't hurt me. And he is a former Navy SEAL. Okay, he actually, we've seen him around the Brentwood area in Tennessee, he at 1.1, against Book of World Records for the most pull ups in a 24 hour period. And he's ran over 100 ultra marathons. His book is incredible. Gotcha. There are a lot of F bombs that are dropped. So you know, just given that, but the audible version of his book is what my husband and I listened to, and just hearing his background, because a lot we have some similarities in our background here. But a lot of you have heard of this, like it, wasn't he, you know, he's the strong man. And then he comes out having had an immense amount of like, sexual abuse, was that his background? He had? Yeah, hit with, I believe. Yeah, yeah. And his father and just horrific. Yeah. So I actually that's funny. I've actually heard his name and his testimony. Just didn't connect it to the book, you know, title or anything? Wow. So well, and he teaches, like, how can you lift the governor off of your brain? Yeah. In our culture, they're trying to keep it on. Yeah. And they're trying to keep a limited mindset for all humanity. I call it the spiritual veil, you just everybody has this veil, sort of draped in front of their face, they don't see the reality of, of the deep, deep, hurt these ideas and concepts create. And, you know, it's these these moments in which I'm sure a lot like it's David Wright, in which, you know, this, this blindfold is pulled from your eyes, and you see the reality that's really been in front of you this whole time. Yeah. That it's a really, those are powerful testimonies. Yeah. Yeah. It was amazing. It was life changing, you know, so for me, at the end with his challenges, he's like, I'm not just writing this book to be inspirational or motivational. Like this is how I changed my life. Yeah. from a spiritual perspective, you know, not a lot, I think, to glean from but from a physiological and what the body and the brain is capable of outstanding. And it was because of that book that I said, you know, what, I'm not going to wait till tomorrow or three years from now or whatever I'm going to take it on right now. And so Chad, also my husband took on the marathon, the Music City marathon that year, and he ended up running and training for that. But yeah, I mean, I highly recommend if you can handle all the F bombs being dropped. Yeah, it's the military thing. Yeah. Both sides of my family are military too. So caught Kyle's side, my husband. Yeah, they still do that very heavily their army Marines and that kind of stuff. So when your kid comes back, you know, using certain words in context, you're like, might want to dial that back. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So this is like, a turning point in your career and what you sort of start entering into using your past for a sense of purpose. And, you know, your husband's done a beautiful job, too. He's really just come alongside you. Talking to him the other day, I just said, Thank you, you know, it's really important to have, you know, you are one. And even if he's not doing that everyday work like you are, he's a part of it. And he's making it possible. So, you know, our spouses need to know. Yeah, oh, I've heard deeply and deeply appreciate it. But so. So beyond this point of like, a realization of where you're at, right, and your career, we've moved over, you've realized that you probably need some certification. Right. So you've so you went back to school? So I went back to school? Yeah, yeah. And I got my master's degree actually walked the stage in May, just so I would have, you know, the, in order to become a counselor at all, you do require that, yeah, a lot of people are like, anti college now wanting to get trades and stuff. But in in the clinical mental health field, you can absolutely go to, if college requires, like you the certification needed to go down a path? Yeah, there's absolutely should um, yeah, you know, my husband. And I always say that, you know, if you don't want to do, like, don't want to be a doctor, then obviously you don't need it, you might want to be a plumber, you'd have to go to this school, right? Or to this school, like, there's just paths, but don't just go to, you know, go to school, which you have to do ya. So if you invest in education and investment, yeah. And I think about that, too, because it's like, do I fully align with all of the experiments on mankind that have been done through the APA? And the ACA? Like, no, I don't, but I knew that I had to go through this to get my degree, just like it's holistic providers need to get their initial degree doctrine, you know, and then move on to holistic medicine. So you need the baseline. Yeah. And then can evolve from there in the real world. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So you're definitely evolving. So once you've gotten into this world, you've gotten your certification, you've gone out on your own now. And yet you also work with another organization too, right? Are you so I have my own life coaching practice. So what I like about that is I take a very holistic approach. You know, when I work for another organization, that's a group practice. I love it. It's great because we we focus heavily on like acute eating disorders. And in that you need the medical model for that. And so we've got a lot of partnerships with medical providers, dietician, psychiatrist, things like that, to bridge the gap for these patients until they achieve, you know, whether it's full weight restoration or whether it's, you know, just get total reparation or repair of their disease that they've struggled with. So that's been phenomenal to have that experience and I'll continue to work with that practice, but I have my own life coaching business called Elysian oaks life coaching. And so Elysian is like the Greek term for heaven, you know, so a heavenly mindset. And then Oaks is like the strongest tree in the northern hemisphere, and everything can burn down around it, but the oak is going to stay sturdy. So for me, I really thought about that with a naming convention. And my husband also has Elysian oaks. In his home preparation, he does like flipping and wholesaling and different things. So we've kind of landed on Elysian oaks. And he also was looking into building assisted living facilities with Elysian oaks terminology. But, yeah, I love that because I can think out of the box, I don't have to and I don't look at clinical mental health counseling is fully sterile, you know, but sometimes it does have a more sterile professional feel where you're held and bound to certain guidelines. Whereas in the coaching space, we can do us out of that, and we can work together in in a very different capacity. And I work with a lot of holistic professionals that look at the whole biological, psychological, social, spiritual and emotional. There's things tied to Yeah, to mental health. So I love that I love having the best. It's really the best of both worlds. Yeah. Do you still see a lot of traffic survivors though? Yeah. Now a lot of that is through some of the organizations that I mentioned that I have, you know, volunteered my time with as a mentor and advocate. And then some of it is just relationships scotch, so people will say, hey, you need to reach out to Amy and I've done a lot of that in my work with SRA survivor. As SRA meetings, satanic ritualistic abuse, because a lot of those survivors don't have a place to go where they feel safe. So if you are known as a safe individual, there is word of mouth. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think probably your background gives some credibility to them as well, having known that, you know, except for the ones that have been abused by mental health practitioners in the medical model, so there's that, you know, take into account. Yeah, of course. But I mean, as far as like your, your familiar background as far as what you grew up, and yeah, yeah, you talk a lot about that, as far as people that have been trafficked need a community of understanding? Yes. And I think we're all like that, you know, human nature is to be gravitate to people with like, similar experiences. And you know, my youngest daughter having disabilities, you know, even hers, turning out more mild. I remember just reaching out to those communities to see what the experiences were for them so that I could help my my daughter acclimate, and my other daughter and my family in general to acclimate. So, you know, how is that you know, tied to your work building these communities? And does it affect just what you do as far as a profession and your volunteer work? Like, what does that look like? Usually, yeah, I would I take it on more as on the life coaching side. Now, of course, I bring my bag of tricks from the counseling side as well, whenever that's needed. And then my knowledge of dissociative identity disorder and borderline personality disorder, which, you know, a lot of times is created in those worlds. But as a counselor, you are bound to certain ethics. And some of those ethics, say, with certain communities, don't build a relationship beyond that professional kind of sterile relationship. As a result, some of people are falling through the cracks and feeling Yeah. 100%. Yeah, that's what I kind of wonder. So one of the biggest things that you could probably observe is, probably professionally, but just me as a lay person is that there is this entire network of things going on? Under the surface, so, you know, in America today, we don't feel as if we have an operational system of slavery that exists, but in reality we we definitely do. It's just very, very under the radar type operations, in which of course, it couldn't possibly exist, let alone thriving, I call it I call like McDonald's, everybody swears that they don't aren't participating. It's it's thriving. It's not just surviving and thriving. Yeah. You know, how do we get out of this cycle of just feeling as if it's not a problem? It's not there? Because we don't see it? You know, how do we bring that into the light? What do you think from your perspective, I think it's kind of like the dignity defense, you know, three tier way of approaching it, because our first phase is education. And so really, that's what I'm doing. Tonight, I'm actually leading a Bible study with some survivors, and with Scarlet hope now, Scarlet hope goes into the clubs, the strip clubs in downtown Nashville. Wonderful. Yeah. So all of those women that they partner with, there are three, I believe, three different strip clubs that they're partnering with to come in each week, and just to give food to them, and to have, you know, a table set aside at the clubs each week, to be able to minister to them and to witness to them. So the women that are curious about God, I will be helping them to lead a Bible study starting tonight, which is amazing, you know, so we need to be out there in the community, we need to be reaching these people. And I feel like that's different. That's a different way of serving this underserved community. Yeah. That's what they need for healing. Yeah, I really haven't seen a different model that works. Yeah, they need to know that their loved scene known and come to the place that they are, you know, it's like, as if it's taboo to actually sit at the booth of at a strip club, where that's where they're at. And that's where they work. That's where their life is. And, yeah, to see them through that. I think that's really important. But ones that are outside of the system of like, you know, forward facing people are aware of strip clubs. Yeah, but there's something obviously deeper too, I think, what was it like a year ago, there was this massive sex trafficking sting that was out of Brentwood. You know, more and more of these things are kind of coming to light publicly, you know, within what was it tied to? Golf clubs and like, elite sports, right? Yeah. Yeah. So I do work with some survivors that have been trafficked through the golf clubs that golf resorts. And I've seen trafficking happen in so many different ways. You know, I've worked with some survivors that are sold in diapers to the neighbors, by their, by their own parents. But I've also worked with survivors that have been trafficked by some of their best friends that work in these resorts. And these resorts. I hate to say it, it's a conglomerate of very well oiled machine amongst high ranking elite individuals with a lot of money. And some of these neighborhoods are, they call them flight neighborhoods where they have actually landing pads in each of their homes on each of their homes where airplanes can fly in. There are children that are trafficked in those scenarios, and also some of the women from the actual resort clubs that are brought in and trafficked. And it's a way of life for them. And a lot of them have their you know, licenses, their social security cards, their birth certificates take in any any identifiable information stolen from them, and they become the property of these traffickers. Yeah, it sounds like a movie like taken Yeah, way back when, where, you know, his daughter's stolen, and he goes in with this particular set of skills and tracks them down. But that's not just a movie. No, absolutely a reality, when I would say they show us the in, it's controversial, right? But they show us the fake stuff on the news and the real stuff in the movies. So they show us they show us what's happening. And because it's shown in a movie, people can't possibly be male. Yeah, I actually remember having a conversation with my father in law. And along those lines, it wasn't necessarily in the trafficking, you know, concept, but you know, he was Greenbrae, you know, explosive. Expert, right. So he's done a lot of different things that are way cooler than good. You know, and we're watching this movie. And I was like, Yeah, they're really extending the, the, the concept of like, reality with this, like, outlandish sort of scenario where like, this plane had to coordinate kind of land and they had to admit error, like, suspend this computer and like, just something just obscene seemingly just unheard. Yeah. And he's like, Why do you think that that isn't a thing? And I was like, Okay. Thanks for confirming Yeah, that these these crazy things that you're looking at movies are probably more realistic than what, you know, we're getting through the news, like you were saying, Yeah, well, and they rely on expertise from the CIA and different things to help inform Hollywood movies. So they know it's real. And they're just giving us a glimpse into it. And some of its symbolic, like, what does that actually mean? What, what could be happening in the real world that we should be looking out for? And I, I think, sometimes we can run away with that. But they certainly are showing us a lot of things that are reality. Yeah. And in the trafficking world, you know, a lot of these survivors, they want to come out, they do want to say what happened, and they're terrified because their lives and their families have been threatened. These are, you know, very high profile politicians and entertainments that are partaking of this. That they know that what's at risk, if they come out? They do. Yeah. And some of them are willing to put their lives on the line. Most of them are not. Yeah, because they're terrified. And it makes sense. I went through enough. Yeah, right. You don't want to replicate that by, you know, needing to go through the the, you know, healing and recovery process that most will never recover from exam where there's a select few that probably, that's their healing process is to fight. Yep. Until death. Right. So, you know, obviously, from your experience, you've seen a lot of different types of of people from your personal experience, but also, you know, professionally, what are these common behaviors and experiences that are sort of like street strong throughout, like, the traffic community as far as mental health? Yeah, so I would say again, there's varying levels of sophistication within the sex trafficking world, from local rural areas to elite regulated government level trafficking, some of them satanic ritualistic abuse, human and animal sacrifices and mind control, programming. All of that can look very different. Yeah. Some of you know, some similarities at the, you know, lower levels. And I don't mean to say lower levels, because there are Yeah, it's all there are levels of sophistication in all of them. It's an empire. It's just like when you have a beautiful organization that you've created, you've got a CEO and your director levels, you've got all of your people that report to all the things in a criminal organization. It's the exact same but they're very good at what they do, in order to take advantage of human life. So, you know, varying degrees, but not limited to, you know, some of them appearing very malnourished. Yeah, they, they put a lot of focus on external appearance, you know, so tanning beds and nail salons, and hair and makeup and all the things to make them externally appear normal, but there's always a malnourishment component, because a lot of them have food and water with her withheld from them. So there is that, you know, and you can just Google this and look up the the many, you know, ways that it can come to light but appearing injured having signs of physical abuse, you know, a lot of these victims are used up to 10 to 12 times per day or more for the sexual acts and typically have a very shortened lifespan. So a lot of times, it's our medical practitioners that are seeing this on the front lines, but they don't know what they're looking what they're looking at, and they don't know that it's affiliated with trafficking. So you know, because they will go in, and they will get treatment for them. Because it's an asset, you know, this, this woman is an asset. So if you lose that, you know, revenue stream, they only have so much so much life out of it. So I kind of look at it, like, you know, you go to Las Vegas, and you see all this, just this facade of beauty and glitz and glamour, but really behind it is just this deep, dark Empire that's built off of just filth, and depravity and hurt and despair and destruction. Yeah, there's so many like, we look back through history, this is very common, like, especially during war time, you'd have just these essentially, and they exist now to by the way, in which they have holding centers in which they bring women into that they've trafficked and they put them in there for a certain period of time until they essentially are kind of broken, and then put into the this use that they'll they send them out to hotels or motels and just men will kind of just line up and one right after another after another. And they have to do that six to seven days a week. So imagine somebody a woman coming out of this experience in which, you know, they've been in for years. And you can't even you can't even conceive how many partners you've had. Because you're just used as, yeah, you're used as an animal. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there's no value or worth. And so that's where most of them come from, is I don't have any value or worth looking at how my life has been exploited. And so dealing with that it's very difficult to try to instill that worth Yeah. After after coming through so much of that. Yeah. But when they see consistency in the humans that surround them, when they see intentionality, and people entering into relationship with them. Yeah, that's where they start to see differently. It's not easy. No, with the survivors, most of the time, they're trying to push, push you away, and test if you will stay. But an owl say like, my girls have been part of ministering. And they haven't even known it. They've just played with the kids of these traffic survivors. We just put a barbecue together, we'd invite them to the park, or we meet at Lucky lad or we just you know, and do life together life with them. Because they deserve that. Yeah, my my parents actually did rescues who served at rescues as a kid and my mom even was a counselor at a juvenile detention center as a child. And so I just remember, you know, going Christmas Carol, with these kids and just having life experiences that, you know, they gave me those experiences, too. You know, once you realize what's happening, your daughter's really benefit from that awareness that oftentimes when you're sort of shrouded from that reality, that's just beyond the surface, right. You gain a lot from that. Yeah. And your girls really well, I can attest to that. Just based on my experiences. Yeah, absolutely. So and then, you know, in appearing injured having signs of physical abuse, avoiding eye contact. Yeah. Social interactions, avoiding law enforcement. Now, it's done for multiple reasons. Sometimes law enforcement is involved in the trafficking. And sometimes they're not. Yeah, you know, but sometimes they look at this person as a criminal instead of a victim. Yeah. And so I've worked with, you know, in slavery, or prostitution or something. Yeah, there will definitely. And that's a debated topic, like sex workers and things like that, you know, I, I grew up in the sex industry. That's the only future that we had presented to us. Yeah. You know, and so is that would that have been a choice? If I had decided to go down that path? I don't think so. That was the only future that was ever presented to me had I not come to know the law Word Yeah, both my younger sisters ended up becoming, you know, strippers and going into the strip club. So I mean, it's what it's the reality that they knew when it's the only option. But, you know, working with law enforcement and helping them to build empathy, led questionnaires and things like that, as they're asking questions of the survivors is very important, because that's where trust and rapport is built. Yeah, a lot of them, like I said, come at it from like a criminal standpoint, if they respond in manners that seem rehearsed, or scripted, yeah, that is a sign as well, if they lack personal identifiable information, or documents, and then if they don't have any personal possessions, if they're with with someone else, that is the John or the handler or their trafficker. They will be the ones talking a lot of the time. And so it's, if you see something, do something there are you No trafficking lines that you can call, there are text messages that you can send to start live chats with these trafficking sites, just to say, Hey, I'm seeing this activity you may want to this location. Because there are sting teams that can be on the scene and be ready to help in a potential traffic situation. Okay. Yeah, those are all good things now. But as that's like a day to day, we keep an eye out for those moments in which you can sort of extract somebody from, from this reality of this terror that they're living in every day. But you know, long term, really thinking about just changing our culture as a whole. You know, how do you feel like American culture can change to the reality? Yeah, so I feel like we're talking about heart change. Yeah. And I, as a counselor, even as a life coach, I'm not there to put my worldview onto anyone else. That's not my job. But since you asked me, I feel like there's biblical application. And one of them is, you know, John eight, verse seven says, when they kept on questioning, he straightened up and said to them, let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. So one of the main ways that spiritual application can be applied for sex trafficked survivors is to change to the public's view of those who are involved in any capacity and in the commercial sex trade. Yeah. You know, with the general public, they think of a prostitute sex trafficked survivors, they might think of a promiscuous criminals chosen their own fate. Yeah. But the perception of the general public is starting to shift to looking at these folks as career choices and seeing them as victims in need of rescuing. And men and women started as children, they were forced into these positions and desensitized to horrific treatment. So I feel like it's the view that we have of them as one of them. And then another large factor assisting those who have been trafficked is public and institutional education. Yeah. So scripture says and Hosea four, six, My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. So mental health practitioners, healthcare workers, intake coordinators, law enforcement, educational institutions, and the general public need to be aware of what trafficking looks like and how to help them. Yeah, it's huge. Trafficking hotlines are available, as I just mentioned, for the general public if they see something suspicious, which is then transferred to a local law enforcement unit, which may specialize in sting operations to rescue sex trafficking survivors. In many states, one study found that approximately 88% of sex trafficked survivors come into contact, or are cared for in some capacity by healthcare workers during their time of exploitation. Yeah, almost 90%. That's crazy. We can do something about that. Absolutely. Yeah, those are good systems to put in place and to work hard. And again, you mentioned dignity defense Institute, that's actually our affiliate organization that's actually trying to educate on foundational precepts of human value. So what feeds into it, too, is the belief that right, what we talked about is that we, we don't have intrinsic value, right? So how we treat ourselves that's a hard issue is how we treat others. And I think also not only just being aware of these and creating systems to help those that are currently in this in a system that's very thriving, right? But also to get ahead of the scenario in which we teach both men and women about their intrinsic value. And it's just an you know, like, Duh, like, I'm, I'm worth more than my sexuality, right? So men are going in and being taught that they're just a system of impulses that need no response. No, no checks and balances. Like I'm just, I'm just my sexuality. And so you just, I can't help it. I have to buy like we just don't buy ladies. Okay, we just don't buy Yeah, don't do that anymore. Because it's not just about them, but it's about out. It's about the the man himself to Yeah, he's dehumanized himself to just be an animal. Yep, with animalistic urges, to the point in which they do get to be a carnal urge where they don't control it whatsoever. And that's why they're in the system as well. Yes. And And then additionally, women as far as like, being aware of what's happening, to ways of avoiding it, but also to understand you're not your sexuality, either, right? You know, and you're more than just a sale of goods, right, getting into the sex industry, you know, by will or by force. That's not your your value. It's not where it's derived from, what I would say too many women who are conditioned in the sex trafficking world will often go on to traffic, other women. And I've heard a lot of stories. Yeah, there was crazy. Last August, actually, Florida, women were arrested on charges of sex trafficking minors. So it's just horrific, you know, either sex, almost like a survival mechanism. When they get into it. I, I didn't hear this one testimony of a woman that was brought through like a boyfriend. And then she was put into this facility in the desert for a long time to go through her sort of programming, programming. And then started being sent out to those hotels and just being used over and over again, while she sort of started to become a mme within the system as a survival mechanism. And then she was being sold to higher dollar a jaw, like customers. Yeah, yeah. So that that actually increased her freedom. And then she ended up squeezing out of the air duct in a hotel. Wow. Yeah. But yeah, just stories of like that are very, very common in which, you know, you're sort of putting the system and you survived in order to survive, you have to hurt you hurt people, like you're hurt, and you have to hurt more people just to get through. And then, you know, the mental programming that happens in which you sort of just sort of assimilate to your environment. And yeah, you know, don't do anything different. That's yeah, and I think one of the things is just from a warning, biblical application standpoint, right? In Matthew 18, five and seven, it says, And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me, if anyone causes one of these little ones, those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble, Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come. You know, anyone who has been brutalized or forced into a child, or forcing a child into trafficking will at some point be held accountable, and justice will be entirely served. But in the meantime, these victims require us to have eyes to see what's hidden in plain sight. Also, I will say this, because I'm getting ready to speak at a church in the next couple of weeks. And they asked me to, you know, put some of these thoughts together. Yeah, do not discount how important it is to honor the children in our homes. Amen. To allow for their voices to be heard to attune to our children emotionally so that they are not vulnerable to predatorial attack. Predators are lurking, lurking online. So I would say stay on top of your children's devices, consider the potential of Not allowing devices except for in cases of emergency. These predators are coming after our children hard yeah, in different ways to than they used to abductions may not look the same as they used to, but because of helicopter parent, parenting, you know, your presence are there, but we're letting our guard down in different ways, abs then than we used to. Yeah. So yeah, that's all. It's it's hard to think in this this term, have such a deep dark hole that you sort of can sink into. And one thing from my profession sort of taught us is that in advocacy, you have to maintain a balance of hope, with hopelessness. Because if you get too much into a mindset of hopelessness, that is the place of an action. So there is hope. And all of these circumstances in which don't go too much into this idea. I'm just speaking to the listener at this point, don't go in too much into the mindset of hopeless nests. We cannot be stuck in an action, because there are women and children and men that are stuck in this terrible and evil and awful. Industry. Yes, just right under the surface slavery in America is alive and well. You know, it's not just surviving and thriving. And we need to actually take action. So you know, a big part of what we're trying to do. Like we said, dignity defense is about creating those systems that you know, teaching about the inherent worth of the human person at the foundation so that we can treat ourselves better so that we can treat different everyone else different to you know, but also to create systems outside of it where we listen to people like Amy and her expertise in this field, as far as her personal experiences, but also, you know, as a mental health practitioner as well, that we can go to their door and sit in the booth of a strip club and see people right where they are the entry point, but also at these different levels and just have a wherewithal to, to think deeply about how to find true solutions. Yes. So that's why we always try we love hearing about stories like Amy's and her profession. So that we can actually feel that sense of hope, overwhelm us again, so we don't, don't fall in hopelessness don't and that's what I was trying to look up because I've got An Elysian oaks, life coach, Instagram, where I'm posting out there, but one of the posts that I put out there, and I can't find it right now, but hope is being studied. And there's been longitudinal studies done on the concept of hope. And what is amazing is that hope, once garnered, can actually be the leading cause of healing, amen. So they, they need hope. And there actually is hope that can be provided when we focus on the dignity, the inherent value of human life. And the concept of I would say, spirituality is definitely one of those things that can provide a link, that's where it's, the inherency of worth comes from our Creator, you know, we're the image bearers of our Heavenly Father and possession of wealth. And that alone, just because mankind treats you differently than that you are the son or daughter or the one Hi, God, and you're royalty, like, you may not be treated like that, but to treat yourself that way. Yeah. And just keeping that at your heart every single day. And knowing that that's what your hope is derived from. Yeah, you know, and then also giving them room just like I had to go through the week of, you know, there were a lot of middle fingers that I threw up to God. Yeah, like, how could you have allowed this, you know, through the process, allowing them to ask questions and battle the way that they need to wrestle? Yeah, yeah, just like we all need to really wrestle and ask those questions that are painful. Yeah, for a lot of people who may be emotionally avoidant, not wanting to ask those questions, because they're too little too uncomfortable. Yeah, so he, he truth stands up to questioning. I'll say that yeah, he's got pretty broad shoulders and he can handle it. Yeah. And you know, even if you're not a faith based person, you can take that that value and understanding of that and maybe it leads you to doubt a journey to God and absolutely we having a knowing is hope and that fulfillment that we experience every day with our what we've gone through that you'll be led there, but don't let that wrestling with God you're having stop you from understanding your worth. Yeah, you know, yeah. So because it is a journey as Christians always say it's a it's a it's a process you know, you're you're always going through this till death. That's why you find a lot of hurt in the church too. But that's for another time Yeah, next time but so I think that's it for today. We're going to bring on other new and interesting people just like Amy in the future, and maybe we'll even come back around on Amy's keep going with her her journey in the mental health field. And Mama two beautiful girls too, that that motherhood has a lot to do with two of our experiences. I feel like oh yeah. 100% and healing and healing. Yeah. So it's you're changing that cycle for you know, so, but yeah, come back with us next time for another episode of pro dignity, no doubt.