Finding Redemption: Escaping the Chains of Abuse and Cults - Pro-Dignity, No Doubt Podcast, Episode 16

In the 16th episode of "Pro Dignity, No Doubt," we delve into a gripping journey of resilience, survival, and, ultimately, redemption. Our guest, Jesse Gibbs, shares her courageous story of breaking free from a life marred by toxic environments, abuse, and cults.

Born into a tumultuous family, Jesse's early life was marked by chaos. Sent to live with her grandmother, her world was shattered when her mother kidnapped her, plunging her into a life of extreme religious fundamentalism and cult-like control. The resulting physical, mental, and emotional abuse left deep scars on her spirit.

Driven by an unwavering determination to break free from the chains of abuse, Jesse mustered the courage to escape her family home. However, her quest for a better life led her to another abusive environment in the form of a commune. Despite the odds, she found the strength to flee again, determined to rewrite her narrative.

Tune in to this powerful episode as we explore Jesse's transformative journey from victim to survivor. Through her experience, we gain insights into the immense challenges of those trapped in abusive situations and witness the indomitable spirit that drives individuals to seek redemption, healing, and purposeful life.

Listen to "Pro Dignity, No Doubt - Episode 16: Finding Redemption: Escaping the Chains of Abuse and Cults" on your favorite podcast platform and discover how the journey towards reclaiming dignity can inspire change and healing for us all.

Summary:

Jessie Gibbs recounts her traumatic experiences growing up in a cult-like environment, facing abuse from her mother, and the challenges she encountered in her relationships. After a tumultuous marriage with Leonard, she left a commune and started anew in Seattle, finding solace in blues dancing. Meeting her current husband marked a turning point in her life, leading to a healthy, equal partnership. Jessie emphasizes the importance of therapy, self-worth, and breaking free from abusive patterns throughout her story.

Show Notes:

• 00:00 - Introduction to Jessie's traumatic past and upbringing in a cult-like environment.
• 05:10 - The role of Jessie's parents: A pastor father and a manipulative, abusive mother.
• 10:15 - Jessie's search for love and validation outside her family.
• 15:20 - The harrowing account of Jessie's sexual assault by a church member and the community's reaction.
• 20:30 - Jesse escapes from her family and joins another religious community.
• 25:40 - Introduction to Leonard and the challenges of their relationship.
• 30:50 - Financial struggles and attempts to reconcile with Jessie's parents.
• 35:55 - Jessie's affair and the subsequent departure from the commune.
• 40:21 - A fresh start in Seattle: Discovering blues dancing and building a new community.
• 45:00 - Meeting her current husband and the foundation of their healthy relationship.
• 50:00 - The significance of therapy, self-worth, and breaking free from abusive patterns.
• 01:05 - Conclusion and recap of Jesse's work

Get to know Jesse: Website, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram.

Transcript

SPEAKERS 

Jesse Gibbs, Nicole Smith 

Nicole Smith 00:01 

Hello, this is Nicole Smith with another episode of Pro Dignity, No Doubt. We actually have a wonderful guest, and like all the stories we tell, it's just really, really strong and unique in its own right for sure. 

Jesse Gibbs is here with us today. Thank you for joining us. 

00:19 

Thank you for having me. 

00:20 

Oh, my goodness. So like, we're just gonna dive right in, we usually just kind of take the structure of let's start at the beginning and move through what your story is like, where did Jesse find her origin, where to do what your life began. 

Jesse Gibbs 00:35 

So I was actually born in Rota, Spain, my mother was in the military, she was a Navy girl. And I come from a long line of Navy family, and she had joined the Navy to make her daddy happy, and discovered that she was quite miserable. So I was her seventh pregnancy, she was 19. And I was her seventh pregnancy, I would have been her seventh abortion. And because she had six before me, and so she had her own trauma coming into this. But she found out that if she was pregnant, she could get out of the military. So this was her sort of sneaky way, if she kept the baby that she could get out of the military. So she was going to have me and give me up for adoption. But three weeks before the adoption day before I was born, she figured out that if she didn't keep the baby, that she would have to stay in the military. So she told the adoptive parents No. And decided to keep me for herself. And then she spent three months trying to kill 

me. She starved me she left me alone in the apartment for long periods of time. There was there's some pretty Yeah, it was. And I have like, I have all the letters from my grandmother, she saved every letter that Mama wrote, where mama would say things like would write things like this insert dirty word, thinks that she's allowed to eat whenever she wants. Yeah, I got those letters when I was in my mid 20s. And had to wade through them. And it was it was very challenging. So my mom moved me and and herself back to Vashon Island, which is a little island off of Seattle, in Washington state, to live with her mom and dad. And a lot of trauma happens there. Basically, if, if my grandmother would tell mama, like, Hey, you, you need to you need to be taking care of your daughter, I don't need to be doing this all the time. Because she would get up with me. She would feed me she would take care of me get me dressed, take me places. And she would be like, this is your kid, you need to be doing something with her. Mama would just take me with her to her parties and leave me on the floor or with with whoever she wanted. So when I was two, she got married and moved to Canada with me, and then came back six months later dropped me off with my grandparents and said I have to go fix my marriage. I need you to watch my daughter. And at that point, my grandmother was like, Jesse's being abused. This is not safe. Yeah, you're giving me custody of her like full custody. I want full custody of my granddaughter. And so mama, who was happy enough to sign the paperwork, signed me over to grandma and grandpa went back. Big drama there. She came back pregnant and proceeded to have another abortion and delivered her stillborn son in the backseat of the car with me in the front seat seeing the whole thing. So I had a lot over you. I was too. Oh, yeah. And I have like my grandmother's journals, from my experiences from that the trauma that I experienced from that, like, I understood, I understood death at a very, very young age. Like I comprehended death. I won't say I understood it, but I comprehended it. And then after that abortion mama took off to North Carolina, she had another abortion when she was down in North Carolina, and then promptly joined a cult. Oh my goodness. And so she joined the, from what I understand it's called the shepherding movement and got really into Bill Gothard teachings about 

04:22 

like a big jump into as an im BD or or like yes, Bill golf. They, yeah. Oh, man. 

04:33 

Yep, we had the book Train up a child sitting on our bookshelf the whole time I was growing up. So I lived with my grandparents until it was five and at this point, mama had married my stepfather, Robert, and gotten her life together, had two babies and my two two of my little brothers and contacted her mom and said, Hey, I want my daughter back. And my grandmother very wisely said no is not a good idea. And so she contacted her dad and said, Daddy, I want my daughter back. And my grandfather who was newly retired from the Navy, ready to start his life. Not not that this is necessarily an excuse, this is just like where his mindset was, was not really interested in raising an extremely high needs traumatized little girl. And so he said, Okay, you can have her back for three months, we'll do a test run, if everything goes well, then you can you can keep her. So my grandmother flew me to North Carolina, dropped me off with these strangers and disappeared. And very shortly after is when my stepfather started treating me like his girlfriend. So part of I'm not I don't want to say that part of all purity culture. But a good portion of purity culture believes that you are preparing yourself for your husband. And my mother believed that to do that you had to practice with your father. And so my stepfather.

It was my job to clean up after him, it was my job to take care of him. It was my job to hold his hands when we went places to cuddle with him if he was lonely. Mom and Papa would sing hymns to the boys and pray with them, and then come into my room and do the same thing. And then mama would go back to her bed. And Papa would stay in mine. So that went on for about 18 months. During that time, my grandmother was trying to get ahold of me like she would send letters and make phone calls, and my Auntie's would send me boxes and letters and try and get a hold of me and my mother would rip up the letters, put them back in an envelope and mail them back to her mother. She told her mom that we were moving and then stopped, like basically put Return to Sender on every letter that grandma sent. Turn her phone off, so grandma couldn't get a hold of us. And grandmas still had full custody of me. Yeah. So she basically sent a letter and said, I'm showing up with the police. Oh, my gosh. So she showed up, didn't bring the cops mama contacted her. I was like, Oh, I don't know what the problem is. Our phones just been turned off for, you know, whatever random reason. So grandma showed us point, I was six, six, okay, six and a half. And grandma took me out to mama made it very clear that if I told anybody what was going on with Papa, that our family would be torn apart, and it would be my fault. What I was supposed to say if anybody asked how I was supposed to handle the situation, and what I was supposed to believe about it. Grandmother can see right through that. She knows her daughter. And so during the five days that she was there, Mama would never let us be alone for five days and finally my grandmother was like, I'm taking Jessi out to lunch on my own. There's nothing you can do about it. So she takes me out to lunch, sits me down and goes, okay, kid, what's going on? And I just told her everything. 

08:11 

About my grandmother, man, 

08:13 

she was crushed. absolutely crushed. My grandfather was to like both of them. Were just just, I mean, even to this day, if you bring it up, it's just heartbreaking. Yeah. And that's, that's something they have to carry. Because this is this is the choices that they made. My stepfather was six foot two, and a Marine. My mother is five foot 10 and violent. My grandmother is five foot nothing tiny little redhead. And she was like, There's no way I'm getting this little girl away from these peoples safely. So we made a plan. She was paying for a private Christian school for me to continue to be educated because my mother wanted to homeschool me. And my grandmother was like, No, Jesse needs to have like an actual education. So we went to the school that day, grandma was going to drop me off and then go to the airport. But she went to the principal and said, hey, you know, here's the paperwork. I have full custody of Jessie. Do not tell the tailors that Jessie is not at school today. I'm taking her with me. We got on a plane and left. Nine months later, my mother my mother was the North Carolina director of an organization called Women exploited by abortion we about and she met the national director, they became fast friends. And Mama convinced Mary Her name was Mary Sue convinced Mary Sue that I was being abused by my grandparents. So she had Mary Sue flew to Washington State, tracked me for three days followed my school bus to and from school watched my grandma and grandpa at that point, we were living in a retirement trailer park. And my grandparents would leave the house every night after dinner and walk just down down the path in the trailer park to where the post office was get their mail and come back like you could see

the trailer. And you could see the poster like it was that it was a block away, very close. But they knew that they did this every night. So as soon as they left, I was listening to Christmas times December 7. I was listening to Bing Crosby's Christmas album, I was in dressed up clothes dancing around the living room, and there was a knock on the door and I opened the door and there was a stranger there. And she said, come quickly, your mommy's in the car. And I said, I don't go with strangers. And she looked at me all startled, and she goes, you're very good girl. And I was like, Okay, I and I closed the door. And I was like, huh, I should probably call one of the Auntie's. That's weird. And so I walked toward the phone to call and call one of my Auntie's who lived down the road from me, and the door burst open and my mother all five foot 10 of her, flew through the room, grabbed me by the arm kicking and screaming, dragged me down the porch steps. I was covered in splinters, and threw me in the back of the back of the car with her nine month old son, who immediately started freaking out because I was freaking out. They peeled away. By the time my grandparents got back to their trailer, there were six police cars, because the neighbor had seen what had happened and called the police. Mama started screaming at me, because I was upsetting my little brother. Once again, putting the onus on me, it's my responsibility. We drove from the Seattle area down to Portland crossing state lines, which immediately got the FBI involved, because now you're taking a minor across state lines. We flew out of Portland the next day, that night, we Mary Sue had gone to bed. The baby was nursed and had fallen asleep. And my mother asked me like, why did you go with your grandmother? Like, why would you betray me in this way? And I told her what was going on with Michael and I was like, This is wrong. This is this is I'm sorry. Pause, pause for a second backup. I use the wrong name. Okay, get that out. 

12:15 

Yeah. You need to make sure that that's not a part of it. 

12:19 

I need to make sure that that's not part of it. Yeah, sure. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. So that night, she asked me like, why did you go with grandma? How could you betray me in this way? And I told her what was going on with Robert. And she was like, Oh, God told me you didn't tell your grandmother that. And then she rolled over and went to sleep. That's the only conversation we ever had about the abuse that Robert poured into my into my life. We flew back to North Carolina the next day. Mary Sue lived in Michigan. So we flew to Atlanta, they split up. I was dressed as Mary Sue son had my hair tucked up under a cat 

13:01 

woman that's with a nonprofit just randomly decides to kidnap a child. And then just like went home. 

13:13 

Uh huh. Just Oh, no. I have no exploit like, where is your? Where's your mind at to do something like that? My mother's a very good salesman. I will just say that. Yeah, she is an exceptionally skilled liar. Yeah. So we flew back to Atlanta. The FBI was on the plane. Mama was dressed in a

skilled liar. Yeah. So we flew back to Atlanta. The FBI was on the plane. Mama was dressed in a wig and glasses with the baby. And I flew home as Mary Sue's son. They lost us in the Atlanta airport. Yeah. So I flew to North Carolina. I was in hiding for two years I stayed at different people's houses that were part of the church who were there to protect me because my grandparents were so evil. Meanwhile, my grandparents are fighting a legal battle that cost them like $60,000. There were two judges in two different states over the course of those two years. That said, Not only should my mother not have custody of me, there should be questioned on whether or not she should have custody of her other three 

14:24 

other children. Yes. 

14:26 

She was arrested, taken to jail for felony kidnapping. She was part of an organization called the lychee League, which is a pro nursing organization. And they wrote letters saying that she had a nine month old that it's extremely traumatizing for baby to be without their mother when they're nursing. Different pastors in the area wrote letters saying how she was an upstanding member of the community. And the judge let her out of jail. She's been three days in jail. Yeah. The conversation regarding Um, my stepfather never went to jail. Because they couldn't prove anything based on my witness testimony. Because the person they had interview me with social services was an older male. So they brought a man into the room to discuss my private parts with me, which was already really embarrassing when you're seven. Yeah. And of course, I didn't tell him anything, because I was mortified. Yeah. And they were like, well, this proves that she's lying. She made it up. Yeah. So finally a judge and I have the paperwork. The last judge who was involved, literally said, he picked up a piece of paper off the top of the court documents. And he goes, there's a note here from the last judge that says that if this ever comes back to court that he gets custody of this case, I'm ignoring this call this this message. And he said it back down and he goes, Jesse's been passed around for as long as she should be. In this state. It's important that she's with her mother, we're giving full custody to her mother. Oh, my God, my grandfather, the Navy man, stood up, pointed his whole hand at this man and called him a son of a bitch. And the judge says it's $500 contempt of court. And my grandfather looked at my grandmother and said, How much money do we have in the bank because I got some more shit to say to this man. My grandma's like, Ronald, sit down. 

16:28 

Oh my gosh. 

16:31 

So I moved in with the tailors. We were part of my mother was really involved with the ideas behind the Bill Gothard trip, how to train up a child. So I wore long dresses, no makeup, grew my hair out. I was very much involved in the purity culture. Boys are always looking at you. You have to be careful that you don't stumble them by the way that you carry yourself and how you act. We were very, very, very poor growing up like we were about $10,000 a year below the

poverty level. So extremely poor. We moved to a we moved to a mansion in a town called mile down was a three three story mansion, with a river and a lake and three cows, and a bunch of chickens and two barns, and it overlooks the Blue Ridge Mountains was absolutely breathtaking. It had an elevator. It was one of the first buildings in the states to have an elevator that wasn't publicly owned. This place was fancy as hell, okay. The idea was this place was owned by a church. My mother had convinced the pastor of the church that she wanted to open a home for unwed mothers because she was part of Libra. So mana has actually been on the 700 clubs several times. With me That's telling her story of Shelley, she would only admit two of the abortions, because the rest of them made her look bad. But she used this as her platform to basically badmouth her parents and make herself look good. And pat robertson himself some of the things that she would talk about, as fact of what was happening in the abortion industry was completely false, obviously, but it was so out there that Pat Robertson did a double take. Oh, yeah. So she was she's, anyway, so she, we had unwed mothers living in our house, the whole time I was growing up, my mother would collect young women who were pregnant, convince them not to have an abortion, then tell them that they could not raise the baby on their own, that it was unsafe for them, that they would be better parents by giving the baby up. And then she would gift the child to friends of hers who couldn't have children. gift, right? Gift, no paperwork. She one of the children was actually born in our house. She was also very much didn't, she believed that all doctors were out to get her because she was pro life. So we had all home births that are at our house. So like one of the babies was actually born and Mama took the baby from North Carolina crossing state lines to Michigan to drop the baby off with Mary Sue. Because Mary Sue couldn't have any more kids. No paperwork, no documentation, no birth certificate, no social security number, nothing. 

19:35 

Just just money exchanged. So I imagine. 

19:40 

I have no proof that money was ever exchanged. I think that my mother got a sense of power out of it, and that's what fed her. There was one one time where I'd actually posted this on on my tic tock. I was talking about one of the little girls when I was 14. She was 16 she was pregnant with black man's baby which big drama In our small southern town where there were Klu Klux Klan rallies, like on the on the main street. And this was a huge deal that this white girl was pregnant with a black man's baby. Like our church told her parents that if they didn't deal with this situation, that they would be kicked out of the church. This is how serious it was in our town. Bullshit. So she was 16. She had gotten in trouble for a minor minor offense and was in jail. My mother bailed her out of jail with I don't know what money and brought her home to live with us out in the middle of nowhere. At this point, we lived at the farmhouse which was 30 minutes outside of lockdown. So it was way out in the sticks. We were 10 minute walk to the nearest house, we had no phone. She had no access to any of her friends. She had no access to her family. She was just there alone with my mother, and all of us kids. And I was 14 at the time. So she and I became friends. And Mama convinced her that she couldn't keep this baby. And she's like, but I love this guy. I want to be with him. I want us to raise this baby together. My mom was like he is my end and do. I don't know what the actual story was. This is just my mother's version. So she agreed to give up the baby to random family number seven. And she gave birth on my bed. She actually climbed in bed with me in the middle of the night. It was

like two o'clock in the morning and she wakes me up. She's like, Jesse, my stomach hurts. I'm like, Oh, that sucks. Do you want to like lay here for a minute and relax, and we'll just talk until you feel better? And she's like, Yeah, so we're talking and she's like, I feel better. And then she'd be like, I don't feel good again. And then she'd be like, I feel better. And I'm like, huh, let's This isn't my first birth. Let's. We're gonna keep an eye on this. Oh, every five minutes. Interesting. I think you're in labor, honey. So she gave birth on my bed 12 hours later and started hemorrhaging. My mother took the baby went downstairs, happily handed it to the Sweet family, who promptly got in their car and left. Mama calls 911 They send the ambulance they send the firetruck. The midwife absconded because she was there without a license and had a young woman dying with no record of a baby. So when the cops showed up, they accused my family of burying a baby on the property. So they brought out the dogs went to search the property. This was the one and only time because the adoptive parents insisted on actual paperwork, that there was some form, there was some paper trail, which kept my mother from going to jail for that. So they wrapped this poor girl up, take her to the emergency room. Take her to the emergency room, stop the bleeding. I saw her one other time after that. And then she just sort of disappeared out of our lives. But I posted the story on Tik Tok, and somebody came in and went, Wait, so your mom was a human trafficker. And I went, Yeah, wait, what? 

23:10 

She's a human trafficking? No. 

23:14 

Ah, okay, I gotta unpack this. Now. She's, Oh, okay. Well, I guess I gotta start over from scratch. So we had we had unwed mothers and babies being born in our house the whole time I was growing up. And then of course, my mother had, I'm the oldest of eight. So she had seven births. After her last abortion, she had seven more births, and three miscarriages. So all total if I did my math, right, she was pregnant. 18 times. Yeah, that's, that's a lot. You can't be I mean, that just messes with your hormones and your hair follicles and your teeth and your brains and 

23:52 

well, and the psychological aspects of the ways in which she took that journey and pregnancy the way that she, I mean, abortion is a very destructive procedure on the body as well. The mother's body is well then to go through births and and then obviously, that process afterwards, you're still like, hormones are crazy. And your body's going through. Yeah, that's healing that goes wild. So, 

24:26 

Mama, Mama believed in the Quiverfull mentality, which is very Bill Gothard. Yes. So she insisted that she had 13 babies because that's Quiverfull and that's how you get to go to heaven as if you have 13 babies. So she was very important to her that she have an entire quiver full of babies. Yeah. Meanwhile, my we so we had a farm at this point we had cows and

chickens and dogs and cats and rats, which weren't really invited to be there, and a black snake that lived in the attic. We had a pig that was raised on another and another family's farm. So my parents decided this was when we had the four boys was me and for boys, and they decided to raise this pig on another family's farm, one of the midwives that my mom was friends with. And so the the idea was that they would raise this pig. And then the guys would get together butcher this pig with no experience, no access to YouTube, no research, they were just going to kill and butcher this pig, and then split the meat. So papa gets all the boys out there. Excuse me, I stayed inside with the baby. And the ladies because this was this was men's work. And they get the boys out there and have the conversation about the birds and the bees and life and death on a farm and what that looks like Papa got his shotgun and walked into the into the gate, open the gate, walked into the pen, took the shotgun, put it to the pig's head and pulled the trigger. Now, here's the thing you didn't know about pigs. Their skull is the hardest part of their body. Shooting them in the face doesn't work. No, all it does is piss them off. So papa goes blam this pig goes, Oh, I have a headache and takes off running a big white boy. Here come all the dogs here come on the kids. And my dad running behind it with a shotgun. And this goes on for an hour while they're chasing this bloody pig around the property tried to track this thing down before they could finally kill it. It was just and stuff like that happened in my family the whole time I was growing up. We had we had a baby cow who thought he was he thought he was a person. He would follow me into the house. I would I would take my my long dress and I would like wad up a handful of it and he would sock on it like a pacifier and follow me around while I'm hanging out laundry and working in the garden and taking care of the kids. Which is really cute. When you have 100 pound orange cow with a little white star in his head. Fast forward a year later, you have an 800 pound steer with horns that are this long, still sucking on my dress and following me into the just, we just had the craziest animals when we were growing up. None of them were taking care of my parents didn't believe in a vet. They didn't have access to like the internet or like, yeah, barely had access to books when I was growing up. And so we grew up on this kind of misfit farm. Well, when I was 19 years old, so corporal punishment was a big part of my of my life. My mother believed that. And I'm quoting here, she had to break the spirit of her children, the rebellious spirit of her children. Which meant beating the hell out of a four year old until they can barely stand up. Yeah, because they're not being obedient or punishing you for saying the wrong thing. She was also narcissistic. So there was a lot of control involved in that as well. And I basically started raising my siblings when I was seven. So the baby would mama would have a baby, the baby would go to me. I would like newborn like itty bitty newborn baby. And I would sleep with this baby, I would get up, change the diaper, bring the baby down to mama for nursing, wait for the baby to be done nursing burpham Take it back upstairs, change its diaper go back to sleep. Until the next kid came along. They would sleep in my bed until they were two or three. And mom would have another baby and then we'd go through this again. So I I was parent, I was a parent as a child. And it was my responsibility to take care of the kids and the cows and the goats and the chickens and the farm and the property and Papa because it was still my job to take care of Papa wouldn't want him to be left out. So when I was 19 my stepfather gave me a spanking for having a bad attitude. And at that point, I realized a week before my 19th birthday, I was working as a DJ, my mother had graduated me from homeschool, the lousy education that she was giving, like the education was so bad. When I left home. My little sister was too and she never learned how to read because I wasn't there to teach her how to read. So she didn't learn how to read until she left home and it herself. Oh no. None of my siblings knew like we were taught church history. We were not taught American history or world history or what's happening in in our culture today. There were like huge pieces that We missed out on because our education and math, they stopped teaching me math. And I just watched if you haven't seen the shiny happy people documentary, go watch it. It's incredible. Yeah. But I started screaming at the television because one of the guys was talking about his little sister stopping

math classes after fractions, because he was told, you only need to learn enough to triple a batch of pancakes. My mother said that to me all the time. And I just started screaming at the TV like, how is this how there are other people that went through this? How is this happening? I'm still unpacking that. That's just because I just watched it this week. So I'm still like unpacking evangelists. My mother didn't believe in that you name it, you claim it you frame it, we call it you name it claim, you frame it, the prosperity gospel that Bill Gothard was really known for it. And she didn't agree with that. She thought that it was more honorable to be poor. So she worked very hard to keep us poor. So my stepfather gave me a spanking, I was the only at that point, I was the only female DJ on four radio stations, I was getting ready to take over the morning show for 100,000 Watt top 40 station booya. And my mother and my stepfather told me that I needed to quit, because I was becoming too worldly. So I needed to come home, learn how to make quilts and prepare for the man that my stepfather would pick out for me. And I went, I'm not happy with the situation. This doesn't. This doesn't jive with me. And so we had an argument and I got a spanking for that. And I went, This is wrong. This is the first time that I can really look at something that they've done. And say this is this is legitimately I'm an adult, and you just bent me over a table to give me a spanking. I'm not okay with this. I'm leaving. So I'd heard about Mary Sue's kids were involved in a nonprofit inner city commune in Chicago, called Jesus people USA. And so I decided that I was going to run away from home and go to Chicago, that maybe if I went there, I would have some good Christian people that would tell me that I'm doing the wrong thing. And I need to go home. Or maybe my parents are crazy. Like I just needed I wanted I wanted so bad to do what was right. I just wanted to do what was right I didn't want. So there's, there's mindset that I grew up with, and I didn't realize actually came from Bill Gothard, the the umbrella mindset, which is that woman is under the umbrella of her husband, and Christ is the umbrella over the churches, the umbrella over the husband and then like on and on and you have all of these umbrellas with 

32:58 

God, you can step outside of those umbrellas or else bad things happen. 

33:02 

I have letters from my mother telling me that I was demon possessed as a child. And after I was quote, unquote, baptized in the Holy Spirit, that those demons left me and if I stepped out from underneath the umbrella of my stepfather's coverage, that I would they would come back with seven of their buddies, I have letters, I have the actual letters from my mother saying those words to me. So I left. I was preparing to leave, I packed my bags, I said goodbye to my siblings. I went to work for my last day at the radio station and I was going to go to Chicago. I was going to drive the van because we had an 18 Passenger Maxi van. And I was going to drive the maxi van over to the bus station and I was gonna buy a bus ticket and I was going to go up to Michigan and I was going to convince Mary Sue to take me to Chicago. And I'm at the radio station I'm working my parents came to the radio station raided my office, discovered that I had packed bag and literally walked in while I was on air and started cussing me out, calling me every name in the book. So of course I immediately being the professional that I am Thank you very much. Put the radio station on autoplay set up all the things prep commercials the whole time my mother is screaming at my head and turned around and had a three hour knockdown drag out with these two people. While I was told that I was demon possessed, that I was going to hell for disobeying my parents that it was my fault that their marriage was struggling. They

accused me Mama accused me of having an affair with my stepfather the works. Finally, my stepfather told my mom to go home. Mama don't listen to nobody ever for any reason ever. But for some reason, she decided that she would do it. So she got in the car and she left. Papa turned to me and said Are you proud? Net? No. Are you doing drugs? No. Are you on your period? Really? Really? This is the conversation we're having. You don't understand what No, papa, I'm not on my period. So he spent another half hour and convinced me to come home. He's like you have nowhere to sleep tonight. And I was like, I will sleep with the radio station on the floor before I go back with you guys. So he convinced me just come home. I promise I will find you a way to get to Michigan. I promise I will help you get out of here. But you need to come home. So I went home. So a half hour drive, mama had been gone less than an hour. And we got to the front door, there was a note on it from one of my little brothers. And it said it said sissy. I'm sorry, we've been bad. Please don't leave. We promise we'll clean the house. So I went in. And I hugged my little brothers. And I went upstairs and I sat on my bed. And my baby brother came in and sat down next me put his arms around me and started sobbing. I was there when he was born like I was there. And he was eight. And he looks up at me. And he's like, Have I been bad? I'm like, buddy, what? Where's this coming from? And he's like, momma's said that I was bad. And so you're leaving because I was so naughty. Oh, no, buddy, you haven't been bad. And then my little sister who's five who I actually delivered, climbed up on my lap, she put her knees on my lap. She took my face in her little hands. And she goes, she looks really hard at me and she goes dizzy, because you have demons. I was like what? She's like mama said you have demons. But I prayed to Jesus, so that you would stay home with me. Okay, so my mother had a half an hour, half an hour. And she made a point to basically traumatize and torture my siblings to punish me making it so that if I chose to leave, they would question their faith. They would question their worthiness. They would question my love. 

37:25 

That's what narcissists. Do you know? That's just Multilib level of abuse everywhere. Yeah, 

37:31 

multi level abuse, manipulative, like just gaslighting all the waves. So I packed up and I went and promptly joined an inner city commune in Chicago. Yeah. Out of the frying pan, right into the fire. Yeah, I lived there for 12 years, I met married my ex husband. I was prepared. I was taught as I was growing up that my responsibility was to care for troubled older men. That was my job. It was my job to take care of Papa. That's what a marriage looks like. Yeah. And so at 19 I started dating a 30 year old, who had never been in a real relationship before and desperately needed to be saved from his singleness. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it was. And of course, the inner city commune was very excited that Leonard was getting married. He's such a good guy. And nobody was like, why is this 33 year old man looking at a teenager? Yeah, like nobody said appropriate? Yeah, totally inappropriate, grow up. But I was told, you know, Jesse, you're so mature. So there are a lot of rules living in an inner city commune. And feel free to redirect me if I'm taking too much time because I could I could talk about a lot of things. But he, so there are rules at your pusa you're not allowed to date for a year, you're not allowed to hang out with the opposite gender, obviously being gay or trans or by gender binary, any of the non jet non binary is completely inappropriate, and unacceptable, and evil. So I was interested in this gentleman, this gentleman was interested in me. And I use gentleman loosely. And so as a community member, you have a buddy, somebody whose job is to show you around, help you

find the laundry room, make sure you get meals on time, make sure you're going to Bible study into church. And then you have a family head and umbrella that oversees you a married couple, and it's their job to ensure that you and your buddy you're getting along answer any questions. If there's any problems with you. The people in the community would go to your family head first and your family had to discuss things with you. So Leonard went to his family head and said I'm in Interested in this girl. His family had came to my family head, they talked about it and prayed about it and decided that I was mature enough and spiritually ready to have a relationship. And so we were allowed to hang out after church in our family heads room and have cheese sandwiches. And that was my first date. 

40:20 

Oh, look good to you. 

40:21 

I know. Such a slide. Oh my gosh. So we paid for before we got married. I really wanted to work things out with my parents. So Leonard, and I paid for which no money, you don't have money living at the edge of Kusa, there's, yeah, there's, but we did side jobs at one of the ministry businesses, to raise money, and we paid for my parents to fly up and pick a mediator, so that we could try and talk things out. Because it was really important to me that I honor my parents, because that's what the Bible says. So they flew up, we spent two days in mediation. At the end of the two days, the mediator basically looked at my mother, and said that she was incredibly domineering. And that she was completely out of line, that it is not just his responsibility to fix things in your marriage, it is not just his responsibility to care for your children. She is doing everything she needs to do to honor you in this situation, you're making the choice to not allow that to happen. My mother lit into him huge blow up giant fight. And I went home and got married. And fast forward 10 years, we were married for 10 years. And I left ministry, there was some drama. I was at a point in my life, where obviously divorce was not an option, living in the inner city commune. And I know that there are a lot of churches that believe that as well that divorce is really not an option for you. And so for me, in the place that I was mentally, the only option was to analyze myself. So I was trying to figure out a way to analyze myself where no one would find me, because I didn't want to cause trauma by my death, I just didn't want to be here anymore. And unfortunately, the one person that I hear from was a friend of mine, who was a guy who was married, we ended up having an affair for about six months living at the inner city commune. Bad scene, do not recommend bad seen all over. When it came out. I was asked to stay at the community. I was as was he and that we were to go to therapy. And I was like, I can't be around this person. I don't want to be in my marriage anymore. And I can't be around this person anymore. This is the first time I can see that something was wrong with the way that I was living. So I called up my best friend because if you're going to start your life over, you gotta take your bestie with you. So I called up June, June, and I have been friends for about 15 years at that time. She lived out here in the Seattle area. She's married to kids big house, and kind of had her life together ish. And so I called her up and I was like, Hey, I did this thing. I messed up. I messed up big time. And I don't know what to do. And I don't know where to go when she goes, you're getting on a plane tonight. And so she got me a ticket and flew me out to Washington and sat with me while I cried and cried and cried and cried for weeks. My ex husband really wanted to try and make things work, even though he didn't want to make things

work for the 10 years we were together now that it was showing bad on him and making him look bad. He didn't care that I had an affair. He cared that he was embarrassed by it. Yeah. And so we had a big mediation with my pastor at the time. And 

44:19 

so do you have kids together? 

44:21 

No, thank God. No, no kid. Her children. Leonard was only interested in having a baby if he could guarantee it would be a girl. You can take that however you would like to. 

44:37 

Yes. So 

44:41 

let her was not a good guy. I won't say that. He was a bad person. He was just exceptionally toxic. Gotcha. So and had a lot of his own issues like you know, anyway. So after the mediation, my pastor We're basically looked at my soon to be ex husband and said, you realize that you never call Jessie by her name. You always refer to her as my wife. You don't own her. She doesn't belong to you. Do you? Do you realize that you do that? And he was like, I don't see the problem. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, so we went through a whole mediation, another two days, big drama, totally exhausting. And I had my freedom. And I started my life over. And I started my life over fresh. It was great. I I'm I had started swing dancing when I lived in Chicago. And so I found a really great swing dancing community out here. And I started blues dancing, which swing dancing is a lot of fun blues dancing. So my heart is dancing is low, and slow, and sexy and close, and just all of the good things. And then you smoke a cigarette, and you go on to the next guy. And it was fantastic. Like it was all of the physical connection that I was looking for, without any of the responsibility or ties. And the community itself was really welcoming and fun. And they opened me up to a lot of really good conversations. Yeah. So I've been blues dancing for about nine months. And I was taxi dancing. So taxi dancing is when you wear a black and white checkered scarf on your arm. And it basically tells everybody that you will say yes to whoever asks you to dance. So your job is to get everyone out on the dance floor. Because if you get somebody out on the dance floor, and they have a couple of good dances, they're going to want to come back, they're going to want to take classes, they're going to want to be a part of the community. It's like church, right? And so here comes this new guy. And I was like, Hey, new guy. Let's get out on the dance floor. Understand, I was very happy being single, I had never actually not been responsible for someone and my entire life. And so to be that level of free, I was not interested in jeopardizing that for anybody. Yeah. Anyway. So I asked him to dance and I won the lottery because he was an exceptional dancer. And I was like, Oh, that was fun. We're doing that again. That was great. So I asked him to dance again. And I was like, Huh, that's huh. So ask him ask him to dance again. Right? So you can when you're chemistry, the chemistry was fantastic. And I was like, so you can get on the dance floor

with somebody and have a really good dance. And if you get what we call a dance crush, it's where the chemistry is really good. The pheromones are fair emoting. And what you do is you go, Oh, I'm hot. I'm gonna go stand outside and cool down. Oh, yeah. If they're interested, they follow you, God. And usually what happens is you have like a four or five minute conversation and you realize, like, Wow, maybe we don't talk. Maybe we just dance. Let's just enjoy the thing and not talk like you've got way too much baggage for me to have this conversation. Gotcha. And so we talked, we talked some more when he came to another event, and then we didn't dance a lot. We just kept talking. Then he came from another event for EQ. So I called my best friend and I was like, Okay, I really liked this guy. And she's like, Oh, God, is it a dance crashing? I'm like, I don't know. And she's like, um, what is going on? And I was like, Look, here's the deal. He plays for instruments. He's computer engineer. He's dreamy. He's a great dancer. He's really funny. ride the motorcycle. Um, he's got four kids. She's like, Oh, okay, so I don't have to worry about you. Right? Because you don't want kids and I was like, actually, I don't mind. And she's like, What? She's like, Yeah, no, I don't. I don't really think a mind and she's like, Get your ass over here. We got to talk. This is not okay. Yeah. So he does. He's got four kids, and we went on a date. And then at the end of the date, I informed him that this was not a date, because I was not dating. No. After dinner, and dessert and closing the restaurant down and sitting in my car until two o'clock in the morning. This was not a date. No. But we started kind of unpacking kind of having one of those like, adult conversations of like, Hey, I was married for 15 years. What about you? I was married for 10. Huh? How did your marriage end? Well, this is what happened. Hmm. Okay, take that into consideration. Parents living? Yeah, yeah. My parents are crazy. Let me tell you about it. Siblings, you know, all of those like the kind of conversations and so he's like, so what happened with your marriage? Like you were married for 10 years, you know, you lived in a commune, like, that's interesting. And I'm going Oh, boy. So I've always been really honest about the fact that I had an affair, like, I'm not gonna hide a part of myself a part of what happened in my life. And it's really important to me for myself to understand that this was some a choice that I made, but it's not who I am. And what that looks like. And I've had to do a lot of therapy around that. Yeah. So here's this guy that I really liked. And I didn't want to tell him that I had messed up so badly that I was this person. But I was like, I'm not starting a friendship or relationship or a conversation with someone, and not being fully who I am ever again. I'm not hiding who I am ever again. So I told them, I'm like, I had an affair. This is what happened. This is where my head was at. It sucks. I don't recommend. And there was a moment. And I was like, Well, this was fun. I guess this was fun. And he goes, Chicago, what brought you to Chicago? 

51:14 

That was it. 

51:17 

That was it. That was his whole thing. And we've been together for 14 years. We have we got married seven years ago. Gotcha. It took us a long time to get to the point where we were willing to get married because neither one of us was interested. So it took a while. But it, we kind of did it for like, rational logical purposes. It wasn't the whole oh, I want a pretty dress. And it was it was he had gone into the hospital. We were living together and owned a house together. And he had gone to the hospital because he thought he was having heart attack. Turns out it was gasp, but that's neither here nor there. But he was in the hospital and people

kept going, the doctor would come in and go you know, Mr. Gibbs thought about it. Ah, and then they would stop and look at me. Is it okay to talk to her? Oh, you're just the girlfriend. You need to leave? Yeah. And so he started calling me his fiancee, and I'm like, fiance, you see a ring on his finger? I don't think so. Oh, we're doing this for a reason. Now I'm allowed in the room. Interesting how that works. Hmm. And so after that, he was like, I mean, do you wanna? And I'm like, Well, I mean, I guess we should? Yeah, okay. Yeah, I guess I guess we could get married. But we were very clear. We didn't have wedding vows. We didn't do the I promise to love you forever. It was much more along the lines of this as a party to honor the relationship that we currently have. And that's that's how we kind of started our marriage. That's how we handle it now that we're we're really excited to be in this relationship. And after about six months of us dating, I met his kids. He's got two boys and two girls. His baby was 11. His oldest was an 18. Oh, wow. And it was the first time that I saw like, a long time with him. And I told him after six months of dating, I was like, you realize if we break up the kids go with me. Yeah. Like that. These are these are mines now like, I'm glad that you like made them. But these are mines now. And now we have four grandbabies. We have four grandsons. Our oldest is 12, the baby is three. And they are the absolute light in my life. And this is not even remotely the life that I would have picked for myself. Yeah, but it's exactly where I'm supposed to be. 

53:41 

Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just digesting your story. So I hear a lot of really difficult traumatic processes that people go through. And it's always interesting to me that you see reoccurring themes. So like you're raised in this cult environment, and then you willfully place yourself in a cult environment again, you have that self perpetuation of like the same harmful patterns, and you just don't really it's like these journeys of like clicking and realizing that that, you know, I was raised. That's not a it's not Christianity, they'll go through, it was not Christian. Yeah, he uses those mechanisms to manipulate right? Because he's power hungry. And your mom saw that as an opportunity to be power hungry, too. She was a power hungry person. And she, she attached herself to that for the purpose of self gratification and to victimize and so that's all you've ever understood as a person. And so it's almost like you put yourself back into the same pattern because it's all you've ever known. It's comfortable. It's 

54:47 

like putting on a pair of comfortable shoes like Oh, this feels familiar. Yeah, to be like, 

54:52 

yeah, it's it's all you've ever known. So like to this idea of breaking free of it is it's a journey, like alright, I've noticed that and other stories, whether it's somebody that's been trafficked, or what somebody that's been in domestic abuse or drug, drug abuse and or cults, environments, it's, it's all that same trauma cycle that you kind of keep yourself in. And somebody from the outside looking in, they just, they can't like, why would you do that? Why would you go and make that choice to go into the exact same thing you just came out of? You know? And what would you say to someone, you know, going through this, if they're listening, like, how do you break yourself of those patterns?

55:34 

Oh, gosh, that's a great question. Therapy, highly recommend therapy, especially if you found yourself in a situation where you've been, where you recognize that abuse is going on. Our our natural human reaction is to find, especially if you are raised in abuse, is to find something that's comfortable. So a lot of, for example, a lot of women who are raised in a family that had domestic violence, end up in a relationship with there's domestic violence, and then a lot of times they'll go from that domestic violence relationship to another domestic violence relationship, because it's comfortable. And we're, we're we're programmed, I suppose, to take our childhood as the example of what is supposed to be comfortable. So the goal is that you're raised in a family where consent is important where bodily autonomy is important, where love is a parent. And that you take that and you take that into your relationships, when you come out of something that's broken, it's really easy to fall right back into that. And I would say, surround yourself with people who will challenge you and love you. And surround yourself with and get get into some really good therapy, because it helps break those cycles and to have somebody that you genuinely trust go up. Okay, so this guy has some red flags, let's talk about it. 

56:57 

Yeah. Understand what actually love is because again, right, that concept of love is so tainted, because what you saw out of maternal or paternal love was deeply deeply manipulated for the self-gratification, it wasn't a two way street. And so sometimes you again, you're like, you get in those patterns of like, this is what love is, because that's all you've ever known. 

57:27 

Right? And your, your brain actually, like sets up, those, all of those wrinkles are set up to follow that pattern over and over again. And you literally have to remake that part of your brain. And it's painful, and it's hard, and it's challenging. And you you lose a lot of things in the process, but you gain all of these wonderful tools to keep that from happening again. 

57:50 

Yeah. And so you need to recognize to internal value that you are in and of yourself are valuable, no matter how that no output within, you know, even family. That's actually what love is right? So no matter what, you are valuable, you are seeing Yep, period, and within color worthy, you are worthy. And then that translates in how you treat other people too. So like you can value yourself, you can value place value, an inherent intrinsic, deep, intrinsic value to other people, too. So that's how you build healthy relationships is around mutual respect for your own dignity. And I can see that, obviously, meeting your current husband was a big healing mechanism for you obviously very much. Yes. Yeah. Because you actually encountered something that was was was a mutual exchange. Yeah, 

58:45 

we are, we I is the first time in my life I've ever been an equal partnership. Like we're partners,

we are, we I is the first time in my life I've ever been an equal partnership. Like we're partners, we are absolutely partners in every area of our relationship. We don't do the whole like, well, it's it's like, as an example, I have my own business. He he works for an insurance company. He's a computer engineer for an insurance company, and I am a graphic designer, and he supports my business. But I make my own money. So like, for example, it's really important for me, always to have my own money because this isn't a permanent solution. Being married isn't the cure all end all it's end of the world. And if this isn't working, I don't want to be in a situation where I don't feel comfortable leaving. I still make a choice every single day that this is a relationship that I'm choosing to be in and having. Giving yourself those options is actually really freeing and empowering to have those kinds of options in your life in your relationships. And I think that goes with every relationship like if you're in a relationship with somebody is not respecting you not not not respecting your boundaries or your consent, to be able to say, this isn't working for me. You don't have to say in that friendship. You don't have I have to stay in that relationship. And with the religion that I was raised in, along with the Nam, the inner city commune divorce was not an option. And now, divorce is always on the table. If this isn't working for me, I'm not staying here. Yeah, I need to take care of myself. And he needs the freedom to take care of himself as well. But obviously, we would, obviously we'd hope it's the last option. Yeah, but it's there. 

1:00:28 

But if you're entering into a relationship with someone, and which there is a mutual exchange, the commitment is to wake up every single day and to see them as a mutual exchange, then, then that's how you have a healthy relationship, that divorce is necessarily an unnecessary thing, where it's not abusive, it's not based on abuse, you know, right. 

1:00:51 

Based on abuse, it's not based on control. It's not based on somebody's like, pushing their boundaries on somebody else in a really negative way. Like, if I set up a boundary, my husband respects it, and vice versa. 

1:01:03 

Yeah. Well, and I liked it to give the tool of, you know, therapy is really important that when you come out of trauma, having somebody looking from the outside in to give you perspective of what is normal, and what is right. Because, you know, again, like I grew up in a really healthy environment, I had two parents that loved each other that that committed to each other their whole life, they're still married, almost 4550 years later, where I hear these stories, and I'm just like, is so that's a strange foreign concept. Because all I know, is this, right? So as I, I've been encountered more people with these deeply impactful stories that are outside my purview. It's an expansion of my mindset to have what's possible of how, how I could be abused, right? And vice versa, if you've come from a place of trauma, getting a perspective of what really should be right. what healthy looks like, what is healthy even look like? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I'm sure it's just a shocking to someone that has been an abuse all their life to be like, actually, that's, that's what is reality. Like, that's crazy. Like, that's a reality for other people. Yes, this is actually how it's supposed to be constructed. And this is how your child should it

should have looked like. So. No, I appreciate your story and the perspective that you give on on what it is like to proceed through a journey. And I always say when you when you go through hard things, it's a journey till death's door, right? You know, you're never really through it until eternity. So what a healthy success looks like is what Jesse's gone through. She's on the other side of it, and she's living a life in which she's a pursuit of truth that of a healthy, just healthy, you know. So I'm hoping that this is an encouragement to other people that are going through. And obviously, you don't have to have Jesse's story exactly to really relate to it, I believe, because like we're saying those patterns are really common in trauma. That if you're going through those situations in which you're sustaining a trauma, and you're actually self inducing trauma, and you're going through the same cycles, and over and over again, and you're knowing that there's something wrong, you need to seek, seek help, go out and find that that person only that can help you find open a door to seeking the help that you really need to stop that cycle. Because you need that perspective, from the outside looking in, going, Hey, this isn't right. You need that help. 

1:03:44 

It's actually one of the reasons I ended up writing my book. So I started writing my book 25 years ago, and telling my story and trying to get things down on paper. And I realized about two thirds of the way through the book that I wanted this to be a survivor's guide, that at the end of it, it's got a happy ending because you don't have to just survive, you can actually thrive on the other end of abuse. 

1:04:11 

Yeah. Amen. And it it is a every day getting up choosing to be something different, right? What was the quote from Dolly Parton? Decide who you are, and wake everyday wake up and to be that person, right? You know, it's very much love early, but good old Dolly, like bring that wisdom in. It is a conscious decision every day you don't just get Okay, life's different. Now. You have to consciously wake up every day and, and make those choices over and over again, to get to your point of healing and always recognizing that I am valuable. Just because I am a human person just because this 

1:04:51 

exists. You don't have to be profitable. You don't have to be you don't have to be productive. It's just really interesting makes you worthy. I Absolutely, 

1:05:00 

amen. Amen. So, well thank you again for your story. And again, like, I feel like we could continue to talk and unpack some more parts of your story, but maybe we'll come on another another time and like really dive into those things. But yeah, so I'll continue to, like, post a lot of stuff that Jesse's doing, actually just take a few minutes and tell us what you're doing. So you have a book, what else? How else can they read your story?

1:05:29 

So you can find out more about me at girl hidden.com. My book is available, I have an audio book as well. And you can find my my tic tock my Instagram, my Facebook page. And I am always interested in hearing other people's stories because one of the things that's happened for me writing this book is how many people have come back to me and gone. Oh, my God, I went through the same thing. Oh, this is what happened in my life. Can I kind of talk to you about it? And so hearing people's stories and even just reading like reviews and stuff just blesses my heart. So I would love to hear from you. If if you want to check out girl hidden.com You can hear more more about what I'm doing and where I'm at in my life right now. 

1:06:10 

Yeah, and I encourage you too, and like I said with the episode, I'll make sure all those resources are available. And again, you know, good luck and all that you're doing and to the listeners come back for another episode of productivity, no doubt soon. Thanks.